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Subject: Fliping Order rss

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Paweł Stępniak
Poland
Warsaw
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One of the players have card (inaccurate quote) Top: All cards have effect "Flip: Choose a player who has to flip a card."
Next player plays card Play:All players flip left most card.
What is the right solution to this situation if player who is next want to target player who own card with Top ability?

1. All players flip left most cards, first player target card with Top ability and it's over (If owner decide to flip this card of course)
2. As above, but all players can choose player to flip a card.
3. Everything is fliped, players flip table. angry
 
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Anon Y. Mous
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All players flip their leftmost card simultaneously. Then, assuming the "Flip: Choose a player who has to flip a card" card was flipped as part of resolving that effect, it resolves.
 
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Jared Voshall
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Yeah, Dr Balance does tend to make things rather tricky. Either effect, on its own, would be easy enough to figure out, but putting them together makes things complicated.

The end result is going to be each player initiates a Flip chain that continues until 1) All cards are flipped, 2) Dr Balance is flipped, thus ending all remaining Flip chains after the first card is flipped, or 3) the Flip effect is blocked by a Cannot be Flipped effect. Generally, either Dr Balance gets flipped early, or everything is flipped (though not the table. That's an Accessory, and you'd need to use its action to flip that).
 
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Wilbert Kiemeneij
Netherlands
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But how do these chains resolve? I've read that community consensus is to resolve everything in the order that it's triggered in, but I'm having trouble picturing how to do that.

I assume that means that every player flips their leftmost card without resolving its added flip ability. The all the flip abilities should trigger simultaneously, but I imagine you could do that in player order, starting with the play whose turn it is. But then what? The first player points to a player who has to flip an additional card. That player flips that card, and then what triggers next? I assume its the next card that was flipped simultaneously at the start, and the additional card that got flipped only gets resolved later. But what if someone now flips dr balance? The cards that haven't resolved yet had an additional flip effect when they got flipped. So should those effects still be resolved? They don't have the effect anymore. I guess they should still be resolved in the order that they occurred in, is that right?

Seems like a nightmare to track. Maybe I should add pen and paper to the box.
 
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murray bill

Alaska
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Yeah, problems like this are current so we have been trying to create logical house rules.

In this example I would think you continue executing all flip effects that occurred before Dr Balance got flipped, then once he is flipped no new cards have that effect. I say this because once the card if face down/flipped it's effect would be in the "queue" and flipping Dr Balance can't undo that.

So, I would guess it goes like this:

1) everyone flips left cards
2) starting with active player, go in order picking a player to flip a card. When THAT card gets flipped, the effect goes into a second queue that will be executed after all of the first round of "pick a person to flip" gets done.

Now, once Dr Balence gets flipped, no more effects go into queue but the rest resolve.

Best solution: don't let everyone flip a card when Dr Balance is Top 😉
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Jared Voshall
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The most accurate solution would be to have the active player decide the order that the effects resolve in - but that's obviously going to be problematic. So, the route I would take is this:

The active player chooses a player to flip their Leftmost card. You then go around the table, resolving all Flip effects that are currently on the stack for that player. Continue until there are no more Flip effects left to resolve.
 
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Wilbert Kiemeneij
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I don't see why giving the active player a say in the order of the actions is a good idea. The card doesn't say the active player gets to decide the order, so the order should be predetermined in my opinion. That's why I suggested player order. That's also not suggested by the card, but at least it doesn't give more power than the card specifies to a player. What's the reasoning for letting the active player decide which order to execute the actions in?
 
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Jared Voshall
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From the back of the rulebook:

[quote="Millennium Blades Rules Pg 20"]Q: What happens if I have multiple reaction effects
trigger at the same time?
A: You resolve all reaction effects you control in any
order you wish. If an opponent has an effect that triggers
at the same time yours does, the player whose turn it is
has priority, followed by the other players with effects in
turn order.[/quote]

So, maybe not what I originally thought... Still, this is precisely the situation it would come into play with (especially if you have other Flip focused sets thrown in). Of course, this messes things up again. I think by a strict interpretation, you would start with the active player, who would flip their leftmost card and choose another player to flip a card. Then player A would flip their leftmost card, plus another card if the active player chose them to flip a card, then player B, and so on.

However, if any player chooses a player that has already flipped their card(s), the normal order would then shift back to that player to flip their next card, until that chain either finishes out (by flipping Dr Balance or there being no other cards to flip). Then, play continues with the next player, assuming there are still cards left to flip.
 
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Wilbert Kiemeneij
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Magius wrote:
However, if any player chooses a player that has already flipped their card(s), the normal order would then shift back to that player to flip their next card, until that chain either finishes out (by flipping Dr Balance or there being no other cards to flip).

Why? The rule you mentioned only applies to effects that are triggered simultaneously. I'd say the effects that if effect A causes me to flip a card with flip effect B, then B is triggered after A. So I don't see how picking someone who already flipped a card would change the turn order.

Also, in this interpretation (if I understand you correctly) there's an enormous imbalance in player position. The player to the right of the active player is likely to only flip their card after the sequence has ended, because there's multiple sequences that simultaneously resolve, and if I understand you, you mean to resolve their part in all these sequences only after resolving everybody else's part. That seems weird to me.

Or maybe I don't understand what you mean. In that case, can you explain to me with an example what you mean?
 
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Jared Voshall
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Yeah, that's what makes this entire thing a complicated mess. Event 1, the flipping of the leftmost cards, affects all players simultaneously - and, as such, each of the 5 Flip effects that this creates would occur simultaneously. Depending on your interpretation of the rules stating that Flip effects resolve immediately, this can throw the entire turn order into chaos as you'll constantly have 1 effect per player resolving simultaneously until Dr Balance is flipped or you run out of cards to flip.

As for the last player having an advantage, you've certainly spotted one of the benefits of their position - but it's also possible for them to get hit with enough Dr Balance targets that they'll have to flip everything anyways, so maybe not that imbalanced.

Still, this is an interesting case. Here are the options as I see them:

1) Go around the table and resolve each step in a round, with each player selecting a target player for Dr Balance, then repeating this process until all Dr Balance Chains have completed.

2) Starting with the Active player, resolve each Dr Balance chain before moving to the next player, until all chains have completed.

3) The solution I listed above, going player to player, resolving their part of any currently active chains. If this hits a player that has already resolved, turn order jumps back to the earliest player in play order (Simultaneous effects resolve with the player closest in turn order to the Active player).

4) As option 3, but you go through the player order fully before going back to players that were targeted after resolving their initial Flip effect.

Of course, my original solution of the Active Player choosing the order or resolution was flawed as I misremembered the resolution mechanic for simultaneous effects. Still, you can see how complicated this particular mechanic makes resolving things.
 
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