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Subject: Any strong males in this game? rss

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Jon Visser
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My wife and I are enjoying this adventure so far, but she commented that there hasn't been any strong male lead characters. We're in Dragonholt running around exploring but it feels like this town is filled with assertive women and weak men.

Without spoiling, do strong men develop in the story later on or is this always going to be lacking balance? I'm not connecting to the story yet and my wife is put off my unbelievable disparity of characters. I do want to enjoy this and I hope it gets better. It's a really good game.
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Jason Brown
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
It's funny that you asked, because I never noticed before. All the strong, male characters in the story are villains!
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Chris Schenck
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What about your player characters? The PCs are the true lead characters of the story. So if any of them are male, there are your strong male roles.
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Jerry Hawthorne
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Are strong men in general being underrepresented in board games and RPGs? I mean I guess my question is who’s counting and why?
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Adria D
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First one that comes to mind is
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the single father who runs the bakery.

Then there's a bunch of the villians. There are historical references to male rulers. And I think there are at least one or two men who
Spoiler (click to reveal)
run taverns.

And from one of the quests,
Spoiler (click to reveal)
(the crypt)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the hero in the crypt you can rob is male.


I can't recall others off the top of my head, but I also haven't completed a campaign yet and it feels like it's been forever since we paused (super busy holidays).
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Jon Visser
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nobeerblues wrote:
Are strong men in general being underrepresented in board games and RPGs? I mean I guess my question is who’s counting and why?


LoD is not much of a RPG. It is basically a CYOA story. And so far, a very well written one with interesting characters (but unfortunately lacking in strong male diversity).

When I (and the majority of consumers) watch a movie or read a book, they want to connect to the characters. I would argue, "Yes. Strong men are underrepresented." This is directly demonstrative right in this game (and many others lately). This trend has been growing. There's a difference between having diversity in games and diversity in a game. If there was only strong males in this story, I would connect with one but it would be completely unbelievable and boring. The opposite is also true, which seems to be what is happening in this game.

I don't feel like defending my personal tastes, opinions, or wants to people I don't know. If anyone has a problem with me wanting characters I connect with in the games I play, that is illogical as a marketing tactic. If you're genuinely asking to help improve this strange pendulum swing of anti-male diversity in some games being produced, than I would be glad to have a civil discourse.

This is my opinion. If someone doesn't like it, don't respond saying I'm wrong. I paid money for my family's entertainment and I want my sons to have strong role models, just as I want strong male characters as part of a well-cast ensemble. My wife was the first to mention this apparent lack of diversity, so it's not my biased opinion. I am biased and I do have an opinion, but I am logical and recognize my preferences as my own.
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Jerry Hawthorne
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citizen77 wrote:
nobeerblues wrote:
Are strong men in general being underrepresented in board games and RPGs? I mean I guess my question is who’s counting and why?


LoD is not much of a RPG. It is basically a CYOA story. And so far, a very well written one with interesting characters (but unfortunately lacking in strong male diversity).

When I (and the majority of consumers) watch a movie or read a book, they want to connect to the characters. I would argue, "Yes. Strong men are underrepresented." This is directly demonstrative right in this game (and many others lately). This trend has been growing. There's a difference between having diversity in games and diversity in a game. If there was only strong males in this story, I would connect with one but it would be completely unbelievable and boring. The opposite is also true, which seems to be what is happening in this game.

I don't feel like defending my personal tastes, opinions, or wants to people I don't know. If anyone has a problem with me wanting characters I connect with in the games I play, that is illogical as a marketing tactic. If you're genuinely asking to help improve this strange pendulum swing of anti-male diversity in some games being produced, than I would be glad to have a civil discourse.

This is my opinion. If someone doesn't like it, don't respond saying I'm wrong. I paid money for my family's entertainment and I want my sons to have strong role models, just as I want strong male characters as part of a well-cast ensemble. My wife was the first to mention this apparent lack of diversity, so it's not my biased opinion. I am biased and I do have an opinion, but I am logical and recognize my preferences as my own.
FWIW, Legends of Dragenholt is an RPG. It is listed that way and I believe for a while it only had an entry on the RPGgeek side of BGG. People literally asked to have an entry here.

Don’t worry, I have no interest in influencing you or even finding out about your tastes. My question was a simple one, and you answered it quite thoroughly. Case closed.
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Jon Visser
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Jerry, thanks for responding. My family has enjoyed Mice and Mystics and I'm excited for my second (and 3rd and 4th) youngest children to experience this fantastic game.

My original response to you was also an open statement to everyone since there seems to be bullies and trolls that enjoy making fun of others though subterfuge: eg. the less-than-clever tags they have assigned my question, etc....

It is disrespectful when they need to validate their worldview through these bully tactics.

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Andrew
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nobeerblues wrote:
Are strong men in general being underrepresented in board games and RPGs? I mean I guess my question is who’s counting and why?

In all walks of life, media and entertainment ‘counting’ as you put it is up there at the top of the list right now so your comment is rather naive.
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Robert
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Yes there are strong male characters in the game.
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Giuliano Bartolucci
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I would remark (even if on the edge of OT) FFG gives the possibility to play a pre generated, downloadable, TRANS character.
This denotes a certain care about gender representation, a courageous choice
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Jerry Hawthorne
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citizen77 wrote:
Jerry, thanks for responding. My family has enjoyed Mice and Mystics and I'm excited for my second (and 3rd and 4th) youngest children to experience this fantastic game.

My original response to you was also an open statement to everyone since there seems to be bullies and trolls that enjoy making fun of others though subterfuge: eg. the less-than-clever tags they have assigned my question, etc....

It is disrespectful when they need to validate their worldview through these bully tactics.

As a designer and content creator, I want to represent things in a manner that is authentic to my life experiences and observations it’s just the best way to create, but because I am me and my experiences limited to a white heterosexual male life, I may be naive as another person suggested above.

What I want to do is represent things well and equally without causing people to feel as though they need to create a thread such as this.

What I don’t want to do is engage in a way that makes people think I’m invalidating their viewpoint. I’m big enough to listen, form my own understanding and move forward without having to try and dominate the discussion with my own values. I appreciate that you got where I am on this.
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Ronald Delval
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citizen77 wrote:
My wife and I are enjoying this adventure so far, but she commented that there hasn't been any strong male lead characters. We're in Dragonholt running around exploring but it feels like this town is filled with assertive women and weak men.

Without spoiling, do strong men develop in the story later on or is this always going to be lacking balance? I'm not connecting to the story yet and my wife is put off my unbelievable disparity of characters. I do want to enjoy this and I hope it gets better. It's a really good game.


The more I read the Boardgamegeek threads the more I regret having purchased the game.
I bought it to play with my g/f a year from now when we moved.
But if this is going to be more 'new style' politically correct on the nose nonsense à la "Last Jedi" I'm definitely not going to enjoy my romp.
I don't care about diversity in itself. What I don't appreciate being manipulated, lectured or the story being warped to follow a checklist à la BBC tv series.

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Jerry Hawthorne
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Darthvegeta800 wrote:
citizen77 wrote:
My wife and I are enjoying this adventure so far, but she commented that there hasn't been any strong male lead characters. We're in Dragonholt running around exploring but it feels like this town is filled with assertive women and weak men.

Without spoiling, do strong men develop in the story later on or is this always going to be lacking balance? I'm not connecting to the story yet and my wife is put off my unbelievable disparity of characters. I do want to enjoy this and I hope it gets better. It's a really good game.


The more I read the Boardgamegeek threads the more I regret having purchased the game.
I bought it to play with my g/f a year from now when we moved.
But if this is going to be more 'new style' politically correct on the nose nonsense à la "Last Jedi" I'm definitely not going to enjoy my romp.
I don't care about diversity in itself. What I don't appreciate being manipulated, lectured or the story being warped to follow a checklist à la BBC tv series.

I think there are perhaps a couple of wild assumptions here.

First, I think people are assuming there is some kind of severe PC messaging in your face. That is not the case at all. I haven't detected one bit of this. The story feels natural and immersive.

Second, I think it's unfair to assume the author is writing with an agenda. As I mentioned above, I feel the most creative when I write from authentic life experiences. Having done this long enough to have had the benefit of collaborating with many other creators, I know this is very common trait. I think a safer assumption is that Nikki is telling stories that come from her heart and her experiences, not some PC activist guidebook.



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Brian M
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Lol. I can't say I have any interest in a glorified Choose-Your-Own adventure, but if it really was strongly biased toward "stronger" women as characters, might be worth picking up just for that.

However, I suspect based on past complaints I've seen of this nature that the perception of imbalance is likely skewed by past media and gaming experiences that are overwhelmingly and ridiculously skewed towards dominantly male characters, so when something comes along that is balanced, or even only slightly tilted in one gender direction, it is perceived as being heavily skewed only in comparison to what people are used to.

I do think though, that many RPG-esque games will be designed from the standpoint that the PCs are the "main" characters. They are the important ones that will be doing the important stuff, so anyone else will likely be a secondary character. If you are wondering "hey, where's the hero I can associate with?", guess what - that's YOU!
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Giuliano Bartolucci
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StormKnight wrote:
Lol. I can't say I have any interest in a glorified Choose-Your-Own adventure, but if it really was strongly biased toward "stronger" women as characters, might be worth picking up just for that.

However, I suspect based on past complaints I've seen of this nature that the perception of imbalance is likely skewed by past media and gaming experiences that are overwhelmingly and ridiculously skewed towards dominantly male characters, so when something comes along that is balanced, or even only slightly tilted in one gender direction, it is perceived as being heavily skewed only in comparison to what people are used to.

I do think though, that many RPG-esque games will be designed from the standpoint that the PCs are the "main" characters. They are the important ones that will be doing the important stuff, so anyone else will likely be a secondary character. If you are wondering "hey, where's the hero I can associate with?", guess what - that's YOU!

So, you never played Metal Gear Solid II, uh?
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Ronald Delval
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Well apparently my previous post offended someone and let to me getting a moderator's warning it seems.
So... I'll be leaving this thread.First moderation I got. Guess this shows how 'sensitive' the topic is.
A good day to you all gentle(wo)men this isn't worth the hassle for me.
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Brian M
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giulibartolucci1204 wrote:
So, you never played Metal Gear Solid II, uh?

Nah, I never played any Metal Gear after the extreme disappointment that you never got to even see the Metal Gear in the first one.
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Jon Visser
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Moderators - lock this thread down so no more comments can be made. What was answered was enough and no one needs to be bullied and "moderated" with warnings.

This is a game not a congressional law being forced down everyones throats to obey. If Nikki has an "agenda" or not, it is her right to include her personal beliefs in her creation. Everyone also has the same rights to judge her work to be suitable or not for their families use.

To be perfectly blunt - everyone has an agenda. We all want to use our mediums to influence others. We all want to create a world that fits our design. It's what creative people do and it is what they should do. I will not discuss the morality of everyones agenda, but it is enough to say we gravitate to agendas that match our personal worldview and are repulsed by worldviews that conflict with our own. I don't feel that Nikki's worldview aligns with mine, but I can acknowledge her creativity, that her game isn't right for everyone but it is right for some. That's OK for right now. No one should be flagging comments yet.

The person who flagged Ronald Delval should apologize privately with him and contact the moderators. This is stupid bully tactics. Also moderators, block that person who keeps tagging this thread with disrespectful and unhelpful tags.
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Jerry Hawthorne
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citizen77 wrote:
Moderators - lock this thread down so no more comments can be made. What was answered was enough and no one needs to be bullied and "moderated" with warnings.

This is a game not a congressional law being forced down everyones throats to obey. If Nikki has an "agenda" or not, it is her right to include her personal beliefs in her creation. Everyone also has the same rights to judge her work to be suitable or not for their families use.

To be perfectly blunt - everyone has an agenda. We all want to use our mediums to influence others. We all want to create a world that fits our design. It's what creative people do and it is what they should do. I will not discuss the morality of everyones agenda, but it is enough to say we gravitate to agendas that match our personal worldview and are repulsed by worldviews that conflict with our own. I don't feel that Nikki's worldview aligns with mine, but I can acknowledge her creativity, that her game isn't right for everyone but it is right for some. That's OK for right now. No one should be flagging comments yet.

The person who flagged Ronald Delval should apologize privately with him and contact the moderators. This is stupid bully tactics. Also moderators, block that person who keeps tagging this thread with disrespectful and unhelpful tags.
As long as people can remain civil, I think a lot can be learned by sharing our views and also by having our views challenged. I'm 50 years old, but by the time I'm 60, I want to be a better version of myself, and I'm certain learning more about others is key to that goal.
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citizen77 wrote:


The person who flagged Ronald Delval should apologize privately with him and contact the moderators.


But isn't it the moderators who ultimately decide to send a warning after assessing the situation?
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VonMeister
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Darthvegeta800 wrote:
Well apparently my previous post offended someone and let to me getting a moderator's warning it seems.
So... I'll be leaving this thread.First moderation I got. Guess this shows how 'sensitive' the topic is.
A good day to you all gentle(wo)men this isn't worth the hassle for me.


You must have violated somebody's "safe space."
So sad.

If you're going to have opinions people, be prepared to have them challenged from time to time. Just grow up and accept it.
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Chris Schenck
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nobeerblues wrote:
As long as people can remain civil, I think a lot can be learned by sharing our views and also by having our views challenged. I'm 50 years old, but by the time I'm 60, I want to be a better version of myself, and I'm certain learning more about others is key to that goal.

Totally true, but BGG has a short leash on religion, sex, and politics (RSP) creeping into the game forums. Time has shown that much more negative comes out of these discussions than positive. So they have a RSP forum specifically for these topics. I suspect the thread will be moved to RSP very soon, if not just locked.

Regarding the person who is hiding behind the thread tags, you know we can still see your username, right? You're not as anonymous as you think. Just click "view all" near the tags, then click the numbers "1" to the left of each tag. They're all from the same person, who just registered in November.
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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VonMeister wrote:
Darthvegeta800 wrote:
Well apparently my previous post offended someone and let to me getting a moderator's warning it seems.
So... I'll be leaving this thread.First moderation I got. Guess this shows how 'sensitive' the topic is.
A good day to you all gentle(wo)men this isn't worth the hassle for me.


You must have violated somebody's "safe space."
So sad.

If you're going to have opinions people, be prepared to have them challenged from time to time. Just grow up and accept it.

But his opinion wasn't challenged, it was moderated. It was apparently deemed offensive, which seems really odd (he basically said if the game was like this he regrets buying it. Not sure how that's offensive).

Interesting about tags on this thread, I never noticed them. Guess someone got offended by the mere question of if there are males or not in the game...

-shnar
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Derry Salewski
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I'm sure octavian will pop in with a description of rules about invoking rsp things outside of rsp. They're also available to read for anyone who wants to somewhere. God knows I go read em all the time when I get moderated.
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