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Subject: The Conga Line rss

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Paul Harper
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So maybe I am doing something wrong from the rules, but have seen this happen in every game thus far. Is there a way to prevent this from happening without having to house ruling something? Looking at attached pic, the lead conga guy is a ranged model. As long as he has a target he does not move according to AI. He moved off the reinforcement point as per the rules. If the player chooses not to kill the lead guy and always give him a target, he effectively blocks all other reinforcements from coming on the board, as per the rules, models cannot move or shoot through through other models. As a solo player, I can trade the single attack from the leader to prevent a horde from moving onto the board. Also since there are so many models in reinforcements, there are limited models in the pool to put new models on the board as reinforcements. Any thoughts?

 
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Paul Day
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In the Artificial Nexus activation guidelines it does state

If a minion is in a position where it is preventing
another minion from seeing or reaching a
Mercenary, it will move until it is no longer
blocking the way, if possible


I think you also need to play them to their strongest as if you were activating them - move them into cover of the desk and leave room for others to come out from the activation point would be my play.

Hope that helps
 
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Paul Harper
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pauld895 wrote:
In the Artificial Nexus activation guidelines it does state

If a minion is in a position where it is preventing
another minion from seeing or reaching a
Mercenary, it will move until it is no longer
blocking the way, if possible


I think you also need to play them to their strongest as if you were activating them - move them into cover of the desk and leave room for others to come out from the activation point would be my play.

Hope that helps


It does, I totally missed that. I am not big on making tactical choices for my solo opponent AI though. It seems fairly easy thus far, although I know the later missions will get tougher. I wonder if I just removed the limitation for the Nexus AI to allow enemies to move through each other if I get a similar effect and can stick to the written AI. Just wonder what it would do for difficulty?
 
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Jerry Tresman
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Helznicht wrote:
pauld895 wrote:
In the Artificial Nexus activation guidelines it does state

If a minion is in a position where it is preventing
another minion from seeing or reaching a
Mercenary, it will move until it is no longer
blocking the way, if possible


I think you also need to play them to their strongest as if you were activating them - move them into cover of the desk and leave room for others to come out from the activation point would be my play.

Hope that helps


It does, I totally missed that. I am not big on making tactical choices for my solo opponent AI though. It seems fairly easy thus far, although I know the later missions will get tougher. I wonder if I just removed the limitation for the Nexus AI to allow enemies to move through each other if I get a similar effect and can stick to the written AI. Just wonder what it would do for difficulty?


That is the third of the priorities, the second sorts this issue. The bolded bit is clear they will follow the three priorities if possible before following the minion activation table. I do not understand why they didn't just put them as the first three items on the table, then there wouldn't be any confusion.

Minions will act according to the Minion Activation Table on the next page, resolving the first option from the list that they are eligible to complete, with the following exceptions:



- If a minion moves into the front arc of a Mercenary at any point, the minion will stop and make a close assault Action against it.

- Minions will always move off of Reinforcement Points if possible.

- If a minion is in a position where it is preventing another minion from seeing or reaching a Mercenary, it will move until it is no longer blocking the way, if possible.

I put together this nexus AI cheat sheet.

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Anthony Czerwonka
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You also forgot this rule!

p17

All reinforcements are placed in wait at the closest active, empty Reinforcement Point to the Target Merc.

So, once you place a reinforcment at a spawn point, your supposed to place the next one at the next closest EMPTY spawn point, not the same one.

You have to fill up all the waiting spots at spawn points before you start doubling up on them.... thus... no conga line!
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Paul Harper
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Curfew wrote:
You also forgot this rule!

p17

All reinforcements are placed in wait at the closest active, empty Reinforcement Point to the Target Merc.

So, once you place a reinforcment at a spawn point, your supposed to place the next one at the next closest EMPTY spawn point, not the same one.

You have to fill up all the waiting spots at spawn points before you start doubling up on them.... thus... no conga line!


OOF, that one is sneaky. This will likely resolve most issues. I did try mission 1 today with just letting the Nexus models move through each other. Barely made it with one merc dead and 2 injured. I will try it by the rules next time.
 
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Brad P
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Helznicht wrote:
pauld895 wrote:
In the Artificial Nexus activation guidelines it does state

If a minion is in a position where it is preventing
another minion from seeing or reaching a
Mercenary, it will move until it is no longer
blocking the way, if possible


I think you also need to play them to their strongest as if you were activating them - move them into cover of the desk and leave room for others to come out from the activation point would be my play.

Hope that helps


It does, I totally missed that. I am not big on making tactical choices for my solo opponent AI though. It seems fairly easy thus far, although I know the later missions will get tougher. I wonder if I just removed the limitation for the Nexus AI to allow enemies to move through each other if I get a similar effect and can stick to the written AI. Just wonder what it would do for difficulty?


Given that movement/positioning is critical to the game you will be hard pressed not to make some tactical choices for the AI.
 
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Nicholas Aldrich
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In solo, reinforcements go to the closest active, non blocked reinforcement point. That last room has 6 of them, and there are two outside of that toom. There should be troops swarming everywhere (all appearing from the next closest spawn point), not a conga line like that.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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455_PWR wrote:
In solo, reinforcements go to the closest active, non blocked reinforcement point. That last room has 6 of them, and there are two outside of that toom. There should be troops swarming everywhere (all appearing from the next closest spawn point), not a conga line like that.


Active means the room has been revealed, so not until the door is open.
 
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Brad P
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Active probably means not deactivated as otherwise if you got to place a reinforcement due to not having enough models to use the activations then you might be forced to place him on an deactivated reinforcement point which would prevent him from taking the activation.

The rules as suggest that All the reinforcements from one card go to the closest active empty point (to the target merc). This is certainly not ideal as it makes that point a prime target for deactivation the next turn but placing them individually would probably lead to models getting placed at points earlier in the mission.

Empty still applies so the next turns would go someplace else.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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eriochrome wrote:
Active probably means not deactivated as otherwise if you got to place a reinforcement due to not having enough models to use the activations then you might be forced to place him on an deactivated reinforcement point which would prevent him from taking the activation.

The rules as suggest that All the reinforcements from one card go to the closest active empty point (to the target merc). This is certainly not ideal as it makes that point a prime target for deactivation the next turn but placing them individually would probably lead to models getting placed at points earlier in the mission.

Empty still applies so the next turns would go someplace else.


They can queue up as per rules, waiting minions are not on the reinforcement point. They only enter it when activated, it can be blocked if they are stopped from moving off it, they can't voluntarily stay on it perriorities.

Normal rul4s apply that are not overridden by automated nexus , so the following applies:-


"Reinforcements are placed off of the board, next to any Reinforcement Point counter. These minions are waiting. Waiting minions may move onto the board via the Reinforcement Points in subsequent turns. Until they are on the board, these minions may not make any Actions. If the Reinforcement Point a model is waiting at is blocked by another model, or has been deactivated, the model must remain waiting until it is able to enter the board. "
 
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Brad P
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I highly doubt that empty in the rules means no one is standing on it. Add more models to an existing line of models gets the nexus very little. If the rules are not explicit, do not have the artificial nexus do something obviously strange. I would call someone standing on it as blocked instead of "not empty" since that is the terminology used when discussing bringing on the minions.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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eriochrome wrote:
I highly doubt that empty in the rules means no one is standing on it. Add more models to an existing line of models gets the nexus very little. If the rules are not explicit, do not have the artificial nexus do something obviously strange. I would call someone standing on it as blocked instead of "not empty" since that is the terminology used when discussing bringing on the minions.



If empty does not mean no one is standing on it what else could it mean? No one is waiting , then where do they go?


When activated they move onto it but until activated they are just waiting and the system (via priorities) tries to keep them 4empty of minions, mercenaries cannot be placed on them. The only time they won't be empty is it a minion is blocked fr0m moving off it.

This is spelt out in the rules.


I agree we need some designer input but I doubt if tha6 will be forthcoming, mantic dont appear to support their games that much.



The intent is clear to bring reinforcements on asap and not let the quueue up, however they have not adressed what happens if they do.

 
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Brad P
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Starman54 wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
I highly doubt that empty in the rules means no one is standing on it. Add more models to an existing line of models gets the nexus very little. If the rules are not explicit, do not have the artificial nexus do something obviously strange. I would call someone standing on it as blocked instead of "not empty" since that is the terminology used when discussing bringing on the minions.



If empty does not mean no one is standing on it what else could it mean? No one is waiting , then where do they go?


When activated they move onto it but until activated they are just waiting and the system (via priorities) tries to keep them 4empty of minions, mercenaries cannot be placed on them. The only time they won't be empty is it a minion is blocked fr0m moving off it.

This is spelt out in the rules.


I agree we need some designer input but I doubt if tha6 will be forthcoming, mantic dont appear to support their games that much.



The intent is clear to bring reinforcements on asap and not let the quueue up, however they have not adressed what happens if they do.


I am not exactly sure what you are trying to argue.
I will assume we are only talking about AI as it is the only place where empty comes up. And then specifically about where to place reinforcements when there are options available.

Empty in this case means "No One Waiting". Stacking extra models behind already waiting minions when another reinforcement point with no one waiting might be a few squares away is not a reasonable reading of the rules. It makes the minions coming on just too easy to block by either closing the point with a terminal or physically blocking them in. It also works better with the random target merc making it hard to know where the first minion to activate is supposed to come from.

It is interesting to note that Active is also included. This seems originally sort of pointless as models are placed after the activations and the reinforcement points refresh before the models would be able to come in but remember the rule about what to do if you cannot activate enough models to fulfill the mission requirements. When doing this you get to maybe place models and activate one of them in the same turn so going to an active point is important.

Since a model blocked from entering the board cannot be activated, if there are not enough models on or who can enter the board to fulfill the activations for the mission then the AI nexus gets to use the bonus reinforcement/+1 actiavation rule which when used makes no sense to just stack them up again behind waiting models as opposed to going to a point which does not all ready have people waiting (who in this case are know to be blocked from acting).

I would probably suggest that you could use both no one waiting and not blocked by having a model on the reinforcement point which would very much help make sure that models from the bonus reinforcement Then the point is truly and totally empty in all senses.

 
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Jerry Tresman
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eriochrome wrote:
Starman54 wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
I highly doubt that empty in the rules means no one is standing on it. Add more models to an existing line of models gets the nexus very little. If the rules are not explicit, do not have the artificial nexus do something obviously strange. I would call someone standing on it as blocked instead of "not empty" since that is the terminology used when discussing bringing on the minions.



If empty does not mean no one is standing on it what else could it mean? No one is waiting , then where do they go?


When activated they move onto it but until activated they are just waiting and the system (via priorities) tries to keep them 4empty of minions, mercenaries cannot be placed on them. The only time they won't be empty is it a minion is blocked fr0m moving off it.

This is spelt out in the rules.


I agree we need some designer input but I doubt if tha6 will be forthcoming, mantic dont appear to support their games that much.



The intent is clear to bring reinforcements on asap and not let the quueue up, however they have not adressed what happens if they do.


I am not exactly sure what you are trying to argue.
I will assume we are only talking about AI as it is the only place where empty comes up. And then specifically about where to place reinforcements when there are options available.

Empty in this case means "No One Waiting". Stacking extra models behind already waiting minions when another reinforcement point with no one waiting might be a few squares away is not a reasonable reading of the rules. It makes the minions coming on just too easy to block by either closing the point with a terminal or physically blocking them in. It also works better with the random target merc making it hard to know where the first minion to activate is supposed to come from.

It is interesting to note that Active is also included. This seems originally sort of pointless as models are placed after the activations and the reinforcement points refresh before the models would be able to come in but remember the rule about what to do if you cannot activate enough models to fulfill the mission requirements. When doing this you get to maybe place models and activate one of them in the same turn so going to an active point is important.

Since a model blocked from entering the board cannot be activated, if there are not enough models on or who can enter the board to fulfill the activations for the mission then the AI nexus gets to use the bonus reinforcement/+1 actiavation rule which when used makes no sense to just stack them up again behind waiting models as opposed to going to a point which does not all ready have people waiting (who in this case are know to be blocked from acting).

I would probably suggest that you could use both no one waiting and not blocked by having a model on the reinforcement point which would very much help make sure that models from the bonus reinforcement Then the point is truly and totally empty in all senses.



I think we are in agreement, the point to others I was making is that waiting does not block a reinforcement point, it is always empty unless a minion is blocked while activated but generally the priorities try to limit that happening. It would be quite wasteful to try and block reinforcement points with mercenaries as they would be delayed from other actions and time is always ticking away. If they keep a reinforcement point in their front arc then they would eventually be whittled down by close assault.

I think the wording means As a priority don't place new reinforcements in waiting at a reinforcement point that has a minion on it, which probably means it is in a mercenaries front arc.

My suggested additions in bold.

All reinforcements are placed if possible in wait at the closest active, empty non occupied Reinforcement Point to the Target Mercenary.


This also nullifies you gaming the AI too much.
 
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Micah Paroni
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Ok so, there is a conga line, or there isn’t?
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Brad P
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chiller087 wrote:
Ok so, there is a conga line, or there isn’t?


Rules as written it is possible as you seem to place all the reinforcements from 1 card at one point, but unlikely to be a significant issue as it tells you to move minions to not block the path of other minions and says to place reinforcements at active empty points (no one waiting).

The initial picture I do not think followed either of these rules

If you add in not placing them on points that are blocked also you would at most have 1 rounds worth of reinforcements at a point in most missions.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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Brad I am not convinced from the rules that empty means not waiting.

1. Waiting units are placed by a reinforcement point not on one.

2. An empty reinforcement point means it is not occupi4d by a minion. The only way a minion would remain 0n a reinforcement point when placed is if that point is in the front arc of a mercenary or places a mercenary in the front arc of the minion. The priorities will cause the minion to move off the point.

In practice minions do clear or are eliminated from the Reinforcement points at a Brian rate.

This does mean a conga line can form but it will effectively even, out over reinforcement activations, between active reinforcement points giving priority to empty ones.

If you block one then minions will pour in at another one and the mercenari4s stand more chance of being surrounded.
 
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Brad P
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Starman54 wrote:
Brad I am not convinced from the rules that empty means not waiting.

1. Waiting units are placed by a reinforcement point not on one.

2. An empty reinforcement point means it is not occupi4d by a minion. The only way a minion would remain 0n a reinforcement point when placed is if that point is in the front arc of a mercenary or places a mercenary in the front arc of the minion. The priorities will cause the minion to move off the point.

In practice minions do clear or are eliminated from the Reinforcement points at a Brian rate.

This does mean a conga line can form but it will effectively even, out over reinforcement activations, between active reinforcement points giving priority to empty ones.

If you block one then minions will pour in at another one and the mercenari4s stand more chance of being surrounded.



I have 2 close reinforcement points. One has no models waiting and 1 model on it. One has no models one it but say 5 models waiting. I have 3 models to place. Should I place them where they become models 6-8 in the line or where they are models 1-3 in the waiting line. For the 6-8 case they have zero chance of being used for at least 1 and probably like 2-3 turns. In the other they have a much higher chance of being used as models on the board can either die or move away making the point no longer blocked.

Next turn if there are still like 7 models waiting (Say 2 activations 1 near and 1 far used by some other models down the table) would it make sense to then put 3 more guys there making 10 guys waiting. No it does not. What about the case of reading empty as no one waiting. Well even if the point stayed blocked then the 3 models stay there and I look for the next no one waiting reinforcement point for my new models. So here I end up with models available at 3 points as opposed to 10 guys waiting at one. Come on.

Using empty as no one waiting at most piles 1 extra set of minions at any single point and spreads minions out regardless of other stuff while saying not blocked could lead to infinite minions waiting if you moving on rate is slower than the reinforcement rate
 
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Jerry Tresman
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eriochrome wrote:
Starman54 wrote:
Brad I am not convinced from the rules that empty means not waiting.

1. Waiting units are placed by a reinforcement point not on one.

2. An empty reinforcement point means it is not occupi4d by a minion. The only way a minion would remain 0n a reinforcement point when placed is if that point is in the front arc of a mercenary or places a mercenary in the front arc of the minion. The priorities will cause the minion to move off the point.

In practice minions do clear or are eliminated from the Reinforcement points at a Brian rate.

This does mean a conga line can form but it will effectively even, out over reinforcement activations, between active reinforcement points giving priority to empty ones.

If you block one then minions will pour in at another one and the mercenari4s stand more chance of being surrounded.



I have 2 close reinforcement points. One has no models waiting and 1 model on it. One has no models one it but say 5 models waiting. I have 3 models to place. Should I place them where they become models 6-8 in the line or where they are models 1-3 in the waiting line. For the 6-8 case they have zero chance of being used for at least 1 and probably like 2-3 turns. In the other they have a much higher chance of being used as models on the board can either die or move away making the point no longer blocked.

Next turn if there are still like 7 models waiting (Say 2 activations 1 near and 1 far used by some other models down the table) would it make sense to then put 3 more guys there making 10 guys waiting. No it does not. What about the case of reading empty as no one waiting. Well even if the point stayed blocked then the 3 models stay there and I look for the next no one waiting reinforcement point for my new models. So here I end up with models available at 3 points as opposed to 10 guys waiting at one. Come on.

Using empty as no one waiting at most piles 1 extra set of minions at any single point and spreads minions out regardless of other stuff while saying not blocked could lead to infinite minions waiting if you moving on rate is slower than the reinforcement rate


The ones on the empty point will enter next activation the ones next to the blocked one cannot enter until it is cleared so the wait could be longer.

Theme wise the reinforcements are aware the point is blocked so find another way.

It is also more likely that Reinforcements will flow easily through the empty point. In the games I have played this is what has happened, Deliberately blocking points generally results in delay and mission failure.



 
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