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Subject: Historical period of Pendragon rss

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Ryan Keane
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Marc (and others), I am interested to know how long historically you envision the game encompassing, apart from "late 4th through 5th centuries." It seems to me a natural starting point is the Great Conspiracy in summer of 367. A natural end point given the titular character is Battle of Mount Badon, which could have been anywhere from 480 to 516 or earlier. The argument could be made the game should end before the arrival of strong Saxon warbands like Aelle in 477 and Cerdic in 495, but after the contract with Hengist in 447, the most famous Foederati. And that the game title refers to the more historically supported Ambrosius Aurelianus of the mid-5th century than to the a late-5th century Arthur. Of course, as you've said, we don't have an agreed-upon chronology for this period, with nearly ever named person semi-legend, so it's kind of just whatever "history" you want to depict.
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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The start point is easy: it is roughly 360 AD, i.e. just before the Great Barbarian Conspiracy indeed, followed by the repeat usurpations of Magnus Maximus and Constantine III.

The end point is much more problematic as various historians have their chronologies off by 50 years or more... Edwin Pace has an early chronology where he places much of the Arthur/Ambrosius/Badon Hill events in the mid 5th century to about 480, where some have Badon Hill as late as the early 6th century...
Note that the arrival (or establishment) of Aelle and Cerdic would typically in game terms be handled by Events such as, respectively, shaded Anderida then Settling, and shaded Cerdic...

So, to get back to the end point, assuming the game plays out all 6 Epochs to Fragmentation, the Pendragon game model covers up to the point where large kingdoms such as Wessex (577), Mercia (584), Northumbria (604), or on the Briton side, Gwynedd, Strathclyde and the kingdom of the Picts, emerge on the scene, altering the dynamics of the struggle for land and hegemony.

The battle of Dyrham which (most probably) saw in 577 the collapse of Briton positions in the Dobunni/Durotriges area, or the collapse (or assimilation?) of the Catuvellauni remnant around Verulamium (late 6th century) would be borderline to our period.
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Ryan Keane
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Interesting - 360-480 seems pretty accurate for the feeling I get in the game.

To be honest, I haven't sat and studied all the events, how the effects reflect history, etc. I've been enjoying being surprised as I play.

It seems like even with 6 epochs and fragmentation the game ends by early 6th century at the latest, prior to establishment of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms as we know them. Saxons would need a lot more than 10 pop to win then? I think the problem is for me the factions in Pendragon still feel like peoples not really tied to any specific areas: remnant Roman military, Romanized Britons in England fleeing their cities and towns, disparate raiders of Jutes, Saxons, Angles, Ulsters, and other Irish, just all scrambling around from place to place. I don't get the feeling of "This is the Kingdom of Powys" "This is Elmet" "This is Gwynnedd" "These comitates and militia represent Urien of Rheged attacking Ida of Bernicia" etc. Still a great game, but the area majority system, 4 faction limit, and packing much of the history in a shuffled deck of events, create obstacles for me in feeling the history.
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GouyonRety wrote:
The start point is easy: it is roughly 360 AD, i.e. just before the Great Barbarian Conspiracy indeed, followed by the repeat usurpations of Magnus Maximus and Constantine III.

The end point is much more problematic as various historians have their chronologies off by 50 years or more... Edwin Pace has an early chronology where he places much of the Arthur/Ambrosius/Badon Hill events in the mid 5th century to about 480, where some have Badon Hill as late as the early 6th century...
Note that the arrival (or establishment) of Aelle and Cerdic would typically in game terms be handled by Events such as, respectively, shaded Anderida then Settling, and shaded Cerdic...

So, to get back to the end point, assuming the game plays out all 6 Epochs to Fragmentation, the Pendragon game model covers up to the point where large kingdoms such as Wessex (577), Mercia (584), Northumbria (604), or on the Briton side, Gwynedd, Strathclyde and the kingdom of the Picts, emerge on the scene, altering the dynamics of the struggle for land and hegemony.

The battle of Dyrham which (most probably) saw in 577 the collapse of Briton positions in the Dobunni/Durotriges area, or the collapse (or assimilation?) of the Catuvellauni remnant around Verulamium (late 6th century) would be borderline to our period.


Thanks for the info Marc - can't wait to try this game!
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Scott D
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GouyonRety wrote:
The start point is easy: it is roughly 360 AD, i.e. just before the Great Barbarian Conspiracy indeed, followed by the repeat usurpations of Magnus Maximus and Constantine III.

The end point is much more problematic...

Not for me. I think my last performance as the Dux was so bad that the Civitates had things all wrapped up by about 361 AD...
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ninjadorg wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
The start point is easy: it is roughly 360 AD, i.e. just before the Great Barbarian Conspiracy indeed, followed by the repeat usurpations of Magnus Maximus and Constantine III.

The end point is much more problematic as various historians have their chronologies off by 50 years or more... Edwin Pace has an early chronology where he places much of the Arthur/Ambrosius/Badon Hill events in the mid 5th century to about 480, where some have Badon Hill as late as the early 6th century...
Note that the arrival (or establishment) of Aelle and Cerdic would typically in game terms be handled by Events such as, respectively, shaded Anderida then Settling, and shaded Cerdic...

So, to get back to the end point, assuming the game plays out all 6 Epochs to Fragmentation, the Pendragon game model covers up to the point where large kingdoms such as Wessex (577), Mercia (584), Northumbria (604), or on the Briton side, Gwynedd, Strathclyde and the kingdom of the Picts, emerge on the scene, altering the dynamics of the struggle for land and hegemony.

The battle of Dyrham which (most probably) saw in 577 the collapse of Briton positions in the Dobunni/Durotriges area, or the collapse (or assimilation?) of the Catuvellauni remnant around Verulamium (late 6th century) would be borderline to our period.


Thanks for the info Marc - can't wait to try this game! :)


Same here! Waiting for my preorder to arrive and really looking forward to it. Agricola: Master of Britain-->Pendragon: The Fall--> 878: Vikings-->1066: Tears (when it arrives!); I think that's got the time period roughly covered.

(Is there an ordnance that military medieval games require a colon in the title?)

(And is there anything that fills that Roman Rule to Roman collapse gap?)
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Ryan Keane wrote:
Interesting - 360-480 seems pretty accurate for the feeling I get in the game.

To be honest, I haven't sat and studied all the events, how the effects reflect history, etc. I've been enjoying being surprised as I play.

It seems like even with 6 epochs and fragmentation the game ends by early 6th century at the latest, prior to establishment of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms as we know them. Saxons would need a lot more than 10 pop to win then? I think the problem is for me the factions in Pendragon still feel like peoples not really tied to any specific areas: remnant Roman military, Romanized Britons in England fleeing their cities and towns, disparate raiders of Jutes, Saxons, Angles, Ulsters, and other Irish, just all scrambling around from place to place. I don't get the feeling of "This is the Kingdom of Powys" "This is Elmet" "This is Gwynnedd" "These comitates and militia represent Urien of Rheged attacking Ida of Bernicia" etc. Still a great game, but the area majority system, 4 faction limit, and packing much of the history in a shuffled deck of events, create obstacles for me in feeling the history.
Yes, that's true. I'm definitely planning to do something on the struggles of Urien, Cadwallon, Ida, Penda, Edwin, etc., but that's after Pendragon, and will most probably use a wholly different game engine...
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Weloi Avala wrote:
ninjadorg wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
The start point is easy: it is roughly 360 AD, i.e. just before the Great Barbarian Conspiracy indeed, followed by the repeat usurpations of Magnus Maximus and Constantine III.

The end point is much more problematic as various historians have their chronologies off by 50 years or more... Edwin Pace has an early chronology where he places much of the Arthur/Ambrosius/Badon Hill events in the mid 5th century to about 480, where some have Badon Hill as late as the early 6th century...
Note that the arrival (or establishment) of Aelle and Cerdic would typically in game terms be handled by Events such as, respectively, shaded Anderida then Settling, and shaded Cerdic...

So, to get back to the end point, assuming the game plays out all 6 Epochs to Fragmentation, the Pendragon game model covers up to the point where large kingdoms such as Wessex (577), Mercia (584), Northumbria (604), or on the Briton side, Gwynedd, Strathclyde and the kingdom of the Picts, emerge on the scene, altering the dynamics of the struggle for land and hegemony.

The battle of Dyrham which (most probably) saw in 577 the collapse of Briton positions in the Dobunni/Durotriges area, or the collapse (or assimilation?) of the Catuvellauni remnant around Verulamium (late 6th century) would be borderline to our period.


Thanks for the info Marc - can't wait to try this game!


Same here! Waiting for my preorder to arrive and really looking forward to it. Agricola: Master of Britain-->Pendragon: The Fall--> 878: Vikings-->1066: Tears (when it arrives!); I think that's got the time period roughly covered.

(Is there an ordnance that military medieval games require a colon in the title?)

(And is there anything that fills that Roman Rule to Roman collapse gap?)


Well, there is Britannia that covers the whole period from Roman invasion to Normans. I'm loving Pendragon (and would like to try 878) but Britannia will always be #1 for me for the simple system and huge historical sweep it simulates.
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Mike Reed
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Looking at 'history', a couple ideas that come to mind that may be 'fun' would be the time of the 'Danish' invasions vs. Alfred the Great, or perhaps 1066 (and all that...)arrrh
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Britannia is one of my favourite games of all times, one of those I have played the most, and I still love it. However, the most I've learned and read about the period (to some extent because of that game), the more I've come to realize that its historical model is way outdated, especially with regard to the fall of Roman Britain and the Anglo-Saxon settlement. This has been one of my prime motivations to design Pendragon... But I will still play Britannia as its is a very fun game.

Re the Viking/Alfred era, I am on record on several occasions saying this would be a fairly natural companion volume for Pendragon using many similar mechanics. I am also on record for saying I have no plan - at least as of today - of designing that companion game. There is however one BGG follower who's started thinking seriously about it...
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Ryan Keane
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GouyonRety wrote:
I'm definitely planning to do something on the struggles of Urien, Cadwallon, Ida, Penda, Edwin, etc., but that's after Pendragon, and will most probably use a wholly different game engine...


That sounds really cool. 7th/8th century inter-conflict between the different Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, along with some Britons like Cadwallon, prior to Vikings invasions - I'd be very interested in that.

I wonder if a COIN game would be good for the dynamics in early 11th century Ireland during Brian Boru's rise, culminating in a Battle of Clontarf Epoch card?
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Ryan Keane wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
I'm definitely planning to do something on the struggles of Urien, Cadwallon, Ida, Penda, Edwin, etc., but that's after Pendragon, and will most probably use a wholly different game engine...


That sounds really cool. 7th/8th century inter-conflict between the different Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, along with some Britons like Cadwallon, prior to Vikings invasions - I'd be very interested in that.
More than some Britons! :-) What I would want to capture is that once significant kingdoms are established, while the ethno-cultural dimension remains important, it becomes mostly a matter of power politics between rivals, where it doesn't always matter whether your ally is Celt or Saxon, though that tends to fall back to that when in doubt...

Ryan Keane wrote:
I wonder if a COIN game would be good for the dynamics in early 11th century Ireland during Brian Boru's rise, culminating in a Battle of Clontarf Epoch card?
I confess I do not know enough of that period to say for sure, but what little I know makes me think it might well be... as does pretty much any period with Celts, as we've always been all too prone to putting factional rivalries above "national" interests... :-(
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Weloi Avala wrote:
ninjadorg wrote:
Same here! Waiting for my preorder to arrive and really looking forward to it. Agricola: Master of Britain-->Pendragon: The Fall--> 878: Vikings-->1066: Tears (when it arrives!); I think that's got the time period roughly covered.


(Is there an ordnance that military medieval games require a colon in the title?)


Well, we actually ditched the colon for a comma with 1066, Tears To Many Mothers - some tongue in cheek chat on that here:

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3525330/1066-tears-many-moth...

And we'll be continuing this heretical trend with 1565, St Elmo's Pay. whistle
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Well, to be honest, I never gave it much thought. I personally use a dash rather than a colon...
"The Fall of Roman Britain" is just a subtitle, needed because we wanted to make clear this was not the RPG... And also I like short titles, so a subtitle is essentially necessary to shed additional light on the game's theme (for instance, my next game will be: "Hubris - Twilight of the Hellenistic World")
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Ryan Keane wrote:

I wonder if a COIN game would be good for the dynamics in early 11th century Ireland during Brian Boru's rise, culminating in a Battle of Clontarf Epoch card?

There would arguably be too many factions for a COIN game about that period.
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Amaranth wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:

I wonder if a COIN game would be good for the dynamics in early 11th century Ireland during Brian Boru's rise, culminating in a Battle of Clontarf Epoch card?

There would arguably be too many factions for a COIN game about that period.
You might try more than 4 factions (though down time would be an issue). Or group factions into meta-factions a la Warlords in ADP or pretty much every faction but the Dux (maybe) in Pendragon...
 
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GouyonRety wrote:
"The Fall of Roman Britain" is just a subtitle, needed because we wanted to make clear this was not the RPG...


This reminds me of when a friend who was into roleplaying games but not wargames asked his local hobby store to get him a copy of the new supplement for the Ars Magica rpg covering the wizards of fantasy medieval Scotland. A couple weeks later he was staring in disbelief at Lion of the North, which had the same name.
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