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Subject: Best characterisation mechanic rss

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Joska Paszli
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Dear readers, prepare for a messy post..

Imagine a game lets say Shogun where a rpg element is added where the player is represented by a figure/Daimyo ... what game has a nice character build mechanic that:

- is simple enough to have it implemented in a war boardgame
- let you build your character with simple benefits/traits along the game and eventually it reaches legendary status and the player becomes the winner

For example the mechanic in Ikusa/Samurai Swords is great where the more experienced your general get the more he can do in a turn. These Daimyos grow in power but a ninja is there to take them down if succesfull...

In my game i want a (secret) chosen by the gods goal for a character and when its fullfilled he is the winner.
An offtrack example of this like in risk where you have to conquer certain stuff... you kept guessing what goal your enemies could have...

So it has to be secret.... not easy to guess what path the other player try to fullfill....

Let me try to explain a direction i want to move... for example Genghis Khan believed he was the scourge of god... when a player draws/takes this "path" than he has to complete some mass murdering land grabbing stuff, some cities razing and more "evil" deeds.... he would become legendary and thus the winner...

And this could be a fixed path set a "mission"card/path but a more flexible system would be more fun... where players "collect"deeds and develop in one or more directions of personality and after a given set of turns or when fullfilling his path he is the winner....

So which game uses such things....?

 
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David Kline
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Lords of Hellas is an area control/war game that has specific heroes who grow in various traits. Might be worth checking out.

There are many games in this same genre that have hidden objectives that give you a certain sum of points towards winning but may not actually be the victory condition.
 
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Jeff Warrender
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The challenge I see with this is that, if I have no idea what you may be pursuing, then I don't really know whether a given action of mine is going to hinder or help you. So it seems like you need at least some commonality between the goals such that, even if I don't know the specifics of your goal I can guess at the basics. Maybe, for example, there are upgrade cards in 5 categories and each scoring card requires some combination of upgrades in a specified number of categories. So I might want to prevent you from being able to get that 4th 'battle' achievement as it might fulfill the 'warlord' goal, only what if the 3rd battle card you acquired was a feint and you are really after a second 'culture' card because you have the 'warrior poet' goal.

I want to say that Mystic War has something like this; 3 categories but your target in each category varies from game to game or something like that.
 
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Joska Paszli
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Thx for this sofar, i will check them out...

I simply dont like a big 0-100 ladder honorladder or powerladder or something like that around the board... i am seeking for a more personal system where players can secretly build up something partly visible partly hidden unless partly shown by ninja-espionage.... and some traits are just personal...

Something like this

Looks complicated but ofc i ment it much more simple...
 
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John B
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Your ideas and it's feedback kinda remind me of The Kings Will. Maybe some permutation of that system may serve your needs? IIRC, Troyes too.
 
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Silver Robert
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The old Runewars had heroes that could level up and perform quests that could get you closer to winning the game. It felt very divorced from the main game, since they had a limited ability to participate in combat.
 
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Joska Paszli
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in my version they must participate in battles as they bring a significant benefit to teh army too... as long they win they are safe but if they loose they automatic flee to a neighbouring region but if that region doesnt belong to them they are vulnerable for assassination and that reign ends... although a son can retry climbing up...
 
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Adrian Pillai
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Okay, bear with me a bit, it's 4am where I am and I'm operating on about an hour's sleep.

Players choose their character, get a character card, which states 1 bonus that character has, either it benefits just themselves (e.g. they can take more damage before being killed) or for their entire faction (e.g. any held territories generate more tribute/gold).

Along each edge of the character card are 1 of several categories: Attack, Defense, Recruit, Civilization, Resource and Personal. (Not each card will state every category, some might even repeat or have blank sides). These categories are where players will eventually link their completed achievement/glory cards, along an adjoining edge that also sports the same category.

(For purposes of clarity, moving forwards when I mention Glory cards, it is the Achievement card while still hidden. When I mention Achievement cards, it is that card revealed and linked to your character or other achievements).

Each glory card you can reveal and attach to your character becomes an achievement. Each of these cards has a specific objective (what you need to do to make it an achievement) and a specific bonus (meaning they only work when attached to a specific edge - e.g. Recruit achievement must be linked along a recruitment edge). The other edges may have other categories allowing you to link other Achievement cards in future (again might have different, similar or blank edges). An example, a successful linked Recruit achievement might allow you to recruit a specific unit in a specific territory (e.g. the objective to unlock your glory card), greatly boosting your forces there.

Glory cards are taken and dealt to each player. Players start with several (say 3). They may only be seen by another player if they successfully spy, and then only 1 card per turn. The other players may then be told by that player what your glory objective is, but anyone can lie as well, (e.g. influence another player to mobilize forces to stop player A's so-called objective, letting you mop up against the loser, letting you complete 1 of your objectives).

Players can only keep up to 3 glory cards on them, but can have any amount of achievement cards. Players can discard a glory card but must pay an escalating cost (the more achievements they have the higher the hit, e.g. universal rule: lose 1 gold or soldier per achievement you have, to discard 1 Glory Card). Discarding a Glory card is in a way a personal failure, hence why it's a greater blow when you're considered more legendary.

Each unlocked achievement makes your forces (and/or you) stronger, making winning easier. Achievements are also points (can have differing point values if you wish) that you can use to generate a VP victory.

I'm unsure if gaining an Achievement or discarding a Glory card should automatically gain you a new Glory Card. Unsure because I feel players should be allowed to say, no I'm good with what I have, as well as you don't want the rich to be lucky and continually get richer. What if they have already achieved a Glory Card objective while pursuing another goal? Unsure also because does spending an action to buy/take 1 Glory Card feel worth it or will it just drag down the game pace?

Just my thoughts.
 
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Joska Paszli
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Mmm love to read your post Adrian.... let us discuss it further....

Skills or traits you just have them as they are programmed in your genes...

I would say that a player can choose a certain path based on his own character of play.... warmonger-peoplesman-merchant-diplomat... or a bit of any of these....
This character type should be vissible to all players as this player iswho he is...
This could result in 4 tracks/techtrees where players advance their characters on... but perhaps just stick it to 4 squares where they start with 2 traits and can gain 2 more

your glorycards would be nice in a way that they can be gained by being glorious but also loose them by being not glorious....
A merchant type of guy should get easier access to merchant based achievments than war-based ones...



 
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Adrian Pillai
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Magyarkhan wrote:
Mmm love to read your post Adrian.... let us discuss it further....


Thanks for thinking it interesting, and yeah, totally.

Magyarkhan wrote:
Skills or traits you just have them as they are programmed in your genes...

I would say that a player can choose a certain path based on his own character of play.... warmonger-peoplesman-merchant-diplomat... or a bit of any of these....
This character type should be vissible to all players as this player iswho he is...
This could result in 4 tracks/techtrees where players advance their characters on... but perhaps just stick it to 4 squares where they start with 2 traits and can gain 2 more


I agree having skills or traits dependent on the type of character you choose to start with is fair. It makes sense. If I'm starting with 2 traits though, I want them to be a little random (not always the same 2 even if I start with the same type of character). Ironically, if I'm starting with just 1 trait, I feel the opposite and I want that trait to be 'baked in' (fixed). Maybe that's just me.

Having 4 traits as a max, I guess could work, though I'm not sure why you should have a limit. I'm assuming that dominant players will win on the main board (or play area) because their empire / engine is well managed. To me, the achievements track (or traits track) enables the not as dominant players to continue the fight... maybe if they could unlock this specific glory (e.g: take this 1 territory/defend an outpost/deliver this amount of goods to this besieged city) it would give them a bonus trait that may just turn things around. Maybe it won't, most likely it won't, but there's always hope. This knowledge I feel will also motivate dominant players to 'finish the victory' before a turnaround can happen.

That said, I understand you don't want this to overshadow the game, so of course you don't want it to eat up your entire gaming space either. Perhaps all your unlocked achievements can be stacked into a single deck regardless of type (merchant / warmonger achievements all in one). And when you want to use the trait/bonus, you play the card from your deck, then it goes to a discard pile. (I don't know why I'm thinking of Warrior Knights right now... I don't think it has the same system. Oh well.)

Magyarkhan wrote:
your glorycards would be nice in a way that they can be gained by being glorious but also loose them by being not glorious....
A merchant type of guy should get easier access to merchant based achievments than war-based ones...


I think a career path glory system might work better than my idea of Attack-Defense Bonuses etc. I think it's more organized - might be easier to spot on the table as you play (via icons / colors etc.) since it's more specifically linked to your role rather than a random 'ability'. Yeah and it makes sense that player character types play a role in making similar type achievements easier to complete. That said, are such 'bonuses' built into the character (the role you want to play - so is same for all players who play the same role) or into the starting traits?

I hope we're not boring the rest of the community to death with this. Would love if others could chip in with their views.

EDIT: added which Warrior Knights I was thinking about (2006 edition).
 
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Joska Paszli
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What itry to achieve is a warmongering version of settlers of catan with a small rpg element...

Right now i have

a player gets a global objective card like conquer this and that and achieve this
a player has a Daimyo representing himself and starts with one trait at his choice a second trait can be "earned" later

the game is balanced around several sorts of income...

military power - conquering regions - more overall options
keep the people happy - invest in religion by placing temples - gives small combat advantage but also best options during events
harvesting rice - if you have not enough a revolt may take place = small combat disadvantage


for trading amongst players the options are

rice
money
hostages like in the game senji
military support
regions

nothing new really what i do is combining the best elements of several games into one and adding a rpg element.

what i had before is a long honortrack and if lets say i decide to kill the hostages i loose honour but it will harm the player that betrayed me too as well...

but right now i left that road and if i kill a hostage the players image changes....
so lets say i have a chacterfeature ruthlessness than this goes up by 1.... this may seem nice but if he has a peacefull diplomatic goal to achieve he must think twice...

so the global objective is to fill a certain charachtercard with upgrades that matches your chosen character which may result in you being elected as shogun...

SO lets say i am a trading gentle and religious person and have this charactertype chosen.... i have to get a certain amount of temples, lot of money and low amount of killed farmers and hostages... even a limited amount of battles... perhaps regions obtained by handing over money/rice or whatever...

a more diplomatic person may want to buy these hostages and return them to the rightfull owner for regions/money and so on...

so now i am seeking a small number of good clear personal features that represent all these features... and interact well with your actions and have about the same value. would you want to be led by a general who conquered most land but killed most farmers...? or he who is very popular but has no money to help the nation...

ruthlesness represent the warmongering status
religious perhaps, this can also be measured by the number of temples you have
diplomat is one
econimist
popularity

so the global and secret objective will be match this charactertype settings AND obtain a certain landmass... could that work?
 
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Klaus Gunther Herzog
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I don't know if this is the ORIGINAL hidden role game, but it might come close and bears mentioning...

Careers

And before the mention of the hidden requirement, when it comes to a simple leveling up mechanic and unique player roles, my first thought was...

Talisman
 
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Adrian Pillai
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Hi Joska, hearing the details you've given it does remind me quite a bit of Shogun - particularly the rice / riot mechanic.

Can I ask what the currencies / resources are in this game? Like money (gold I presume) is one, hostages/civilians/farmers is another, rice is a third, soldiers fourth, temples fifth... any others? Personally I don't think you need another.

Just for me to get an idea of the various moving parts...

Gold is easier to earn for merchants.
Hostages/Public support are easier to earn/buy for the diplomat.
Rice is easier to earn for ... hmm...
Soldiers are easier to recruit for the General / Warlord / Warmonger.
Temples are easier to build for the religious / priest (priestess).

Gold allows you to buy hostages, rice, soldiers (mercenaries) and fund temples. Conversely I think all those items should also help you earn gold, e.g: merchant sells hostages (yes, you are a bastard), establish trade routes, soldiers eliminate competition, temples give you financial blessings. You finance everything with gold.

Hostages / Public Support gives you... some gold (not as much as Merchant or any other role), a lot of rice (makes sense since happy farmers work better), and weak against soldiers, but perhaps a defensive bonus (since with a lot of rice they can hold out in a siege?). The flip side is that you need to finance everything with rice.

Soldiers give you some gold (based on looting/sacking cities?), some rice (again via sacking - unless a player burns their rice stores), tons of fame (which helps you recruit more soldiers easier)? Finance everything with... um... combination of gold & rice?

Temples:
The more temples a player controls, the greater the blessings they receive.
The type of blessings they receive is based on the contribution the player makes? e.g: if they place gold, they get gold bonus. If they place rice, get defensive bonus, if they place... soldiers they get an attack bonus? maybe?

I don't know... this is still a bit messy as I'm just coming up with this as I write. Sorry this is not well thought out at all.

Anyway, back to original question - how many currencies do you have, and how is it used in the game? Thanks.
 
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Joska Paszli
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yes you summed it up already, there is nothing more...

rice is needed to keep the people happy and feed the provinces in the winter like in shogun..

what i wanted to add with event cards is the appearance of dutch/portugese merchants who give military advantage (muskets) and such but all can be converted to gold or whatever they like when traded with other players

the more you invest in religion/temples and gold sacrifeces made in winter the more advantage you have with the event cards which are selected in winter....
SO lets say i am the most religious, when an earthquake appears as an event i may loose 0 buildings, the less religious 2 and all others just 1.

Believe me but i want things to be as logical as possible

What i am looking for now as well is a total random way an event occur.. i was thinking when 3 or more players pick either tax or harvest... i must test this abit to see what happends just 1-2 perhaps 3 times max in a year.

Let me explain how the game flows:

Each player as command cards he can play during a full year from spring to autumn, 7 cards can be played in total:
3 buildcards for castles-temples, a full castle is build with playing 2 cards...
3 harvestcards to get rice but every 2nd time you use it in a year revoltmarkers are placed randomly
3 recruitcards to recruit new units but every 2nd time you use it in a year revoltmarkers are placed randomly
3 taxcards to get money but every 2nd time you use it in a year revoltmarkers are placed randomly
4 movecards to move units from all regions a max distance of 1 region but if a daimyo moves along with it it is 2 regions
3 attackcards to attack with 1 or more armies towards 1 region

In the winterphase some calculations are made like order on the religionladder, rice check based on number of provinces and gambling on a ninja like in ikusa...

a common rule is that never 2 of the same cardtype can be played after each other.
Every player picks a card from his pile and all these cards are played simultanuosly... but its order is decided by the type of command... the order these cards are played are:
tax harvest build.... people can resolve these without consequences
than moves and last the player(s) with attackscommands


if lets say 2 or more players have attackcommands than i dunno yet whats best way to decide what order they are played.... i can imagine that the previous order is taken into account, or the religion order (in the belief that your god helps you in timing of your attack). maybe relgious order is most fast...

you know the combat cube tower of shogun? i am using the same thing but when you defend with a temple the first cube of the enemy is disgarded and when you defend with a castle the first 2 cubes of the enemy are disgarded... for the castles i use the ones that comes with ikusa... so the fortified castle gives perhaps 3 cubes to disgard... its strong, but attacking a fortified castle shoudnt be easy.

as a map i use the ikusa map now as prototype where the number of provinces is tuned down from 68 in ikusa to about 50. so the regions are a bit bigger.

i tried to get the game of thrones going in our gamegroup but that game is overcomplicated imo. the tokens with a star, the 4 different combattypes and so on.. but it has good things too like those 3 ladders

the nice thing about ikusa is the secret planning and the swords. but its only combat orientated. our gamegroup likes more simultaneous dynamic gameplay like in settles of catan.... thats why i want to add trading stuff...

eventually i want to convert this to the warren states era in china and add a thing like barbaric-mongol invasion... as the barbaric invasion in settles...

lastly i noticed that some sort indentifying yourself with a character is modern... kids love it, me myself too and for that part i am here...
i was thinking what someone said here that it may not distract too much from the main game.... and thats where i keep an eye on by everything i add. this personalisation of teh daimyo

the common way in games is to have some sort of track arount the board but i really dont like that... winning based on "points" feels so unrealistic that should be handled more realistic but how?

right now i am thinking along some sort of glorious achievement where you have to thick several boxes..

Most religious on the religion ladder having most temples?
Most human on a humanity ladder by less revoltcausing and not taking or killing hostages?
Owning a region, a fixed set of provinces indicated by outlines on the map?
Owning a -large- number of provinces
Owning a certain amount of gold and rice
Owning some eventcards

or this represented in the character and his development... or a combination of cards and development?

and for example humanity, how quickly do people forgive? lets say i kill hostages but dont tax the people too much, how will they respond..?


 
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Adrian Pillai
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Magyarkhan wrote:
the common way in games is to have some sort of track arount the board but i really dont like that... winning based on "points" feels so unrealistic that should be handled more realistic but how?

right now i am thinking along some sort of glorious achievement where you have to thick several boxes..

Most religious on the religion ladder having most temples?
Most human on a humanity ladder by less revoltcausing and not taking or killing hostages?
Owning a region, a fixed set of provinces indicated by outlines on the map?
Owning a -large- number of provinces
Owning a certain amount of gold and rice
Owning some eventcards


Have you considered Scythe's you gotta achieve a thing at least once to mark it as successful but must achieve several things (6 in Scythe if I remember) to actually win?

Cribbing from that 'several achievements = victory', players can draw cards that would shape their victory conditions. I'm thinking a card draft to get these Objective (Glory?) cards as part of setup might be fun - allow players to either draft strategically or even hate draft.

EDIT: I don't think there should be 6 objectives like Scythe - no less than 3 but no more than 5. Players can discard an objective and redraw a new one during the game. The disadvantage is you cannot choose the objective you redraw. And maybe you pay a small penalty too. This is so players aren't 100% trapped within their objectives, but also you don't want players to just keep doing this until they get something they want.

Magyarkhan wrote:
what i wanted to add with event cards is the appearance of dutch/portugese merchants who give military advantage (muskets) and such but all can be converted to gold or whatever they like when traded with other players...

...you know the combat cube tower of shogun? i am using the same thing but when you defend with a temple the first cube of the enemy is disgarded and when you defend with a castle the first 2 cubes of the enemy are disgarded... for the castles i use the ones that comes with ikusa... so the fortified castle gives perhaps 3 cubes to disgard... its strong, but attacking a fortified castle shoudnt be easy.

So if I had more advanced weaponry - e.g: muskets (or canons as a siege weapon) would it allow me to add back attack cubes?

Magyarkhan wrote:
What i am looking for now as well is a total random way an event occur.. i was thinking when 3 or more players pick either tax or harvest... i must test this abit to see what happends just 1-2 perhaps 3 times max in a year.

Are all events bad or do good things happen occasionally too? Either case, I would consider events happen on a fixed time frame - like every change of season. The kicker though is players may push an event to happen later (or earlier) through something in their control. This way, players know when something bad (or good) is going to happen and can prepare for it. But letting other players influence it rather than the game makes it viable strategy rather than dumb luck. The event is still random - but when it happens isn't.

Magyarkhan wrote:
a common rule is that never 2 of the same cardtype can be played after each other.
Every player picks a card from his pile and all these cards are played simultanuosly... but its order is decided by the type of command... the order these cards are played are:
tax harvest build.... people can resolve these without consequences
than moves and last the player(s) with attackscommands


Hmm... what if a player moves out of a town just before another player attacks? While yes, it's possible for the attacker to just annex the abandoned town - the attack command would feel like a waste since there's no one around to attack, right? Or is the player then slaughtering farmers / hostages, despite not being their intention? It would be horrific if that wasn't what you want to happen.

It sounds like action programming in this case, and I think having it occur in a fixed resolution order rather than the order I played it... I'm not sure about that. Maybe I want to attack and then move - classic hit and run, like the Mongols did.

It's not so much a problem I guess for most of the other orders since they operate independently of each other - they only work on areas that a player currently controls, but moving (which may result in collision - two players' forces going to the same territory) and attack directly affect neighboring areas - and that may get messy.

Magyarkhan wrote:
if lets say 2 or more players have attackcommands than i dunno yet whats best way to decide what order they are played.... i can imagine that the previous order is taken into account, or the religion order (in the belief that your god helps you in timing of your attack). maybe relgious order is most fast...


If I played my attack card first in my orders, and another player plays their attack card second (or third) in their orders, I feel that sequence should be respected. Yes, if I'm first player and I tie with another player in playing an attack card, then I attack first. (and how first player is determined in any round shouldn't be complicated to establish/change).

Magyarkhan wrote:
and for example humanity, how quickly do people forgive? lets say i kill hostages but dont tax the people too much, how will they respond..?


Interesting point about this. Very interesting. I would imagine if you kill hostages you motivate a lot of people to join some form of resistance (hmm...) or to help other factions try to topple you. Taxation or lack thereof affects people's day to day lives but I'm not sure if people will effectively forgive you for killing so many townsfolk but lower taxes... well, unless of course you're a one-percenter...

There might be something about town loyalty / likelihood of rebellion if you slaughter hostages. Maybe your ruthlessness track = number of towns that will revolt against you start of next season. If you have less towns than your ruthless scale, every new town you occupy will definitely revolt against you (e.g: burn their crops). You can pay towns you control (place gold or rice) on towns to 'bribe' them to not revolt, (pay to protect). It doesn't reduce your ruthlessness meter - that may require a contribution to the Gods, or to build temples to reduce.

Ruthlessness shouldn't be all bad though - it should be valuable. Perhaps ruthlessness gives you an attacking edge? Your soldiers are more determined in battle (e.g: results in you being able to add cubes to your dice tower attack/defense). Keep the rule simple - if you're more ruthless than your opponent, gain 2 cubes in attack/defense. If you're tied, gain no cubes. Maybe.
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Joska Paszli
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No i have never tried scythe... 6 objectives sound much... i am thinking of a combination of achievements where like in eg poker your cosen combinations of things to achieve grants victory... like in real life suddenly one leader becomes the king/khan/shogun while its not always because he had the most points... of course he must achieve things but the chosen path was "suddenly" enough to become a supreme leader.

A bit like a little puzzle where suddenly the pieces fit in the picture... but how to create that...

Concerning the cubes yes you could either grant an extra cube OR when the result s thrown the first damaging cube is discarded.

Muskets attack attackpower so having this advantage you can add 1 cube each season in attack. And the more muskets you get the more bonuscubes each season.
When defending with a castle i think discarding is the most logical option.

FOr now i am think attack cards allow you just to attack one province and yes after the other moved... option could be to do this if all people execute their moves all together where players with an attackcard first choose secretly a province card where the attack will get place than the provinces are revealed... and the attack executed.
In this way a hired ninja can also become effective in scouting that hidden attack...

Well i want events to be random but perhaps sometimes predictable. You should know when season give a bad or good harvest.... so that one should be revealed after lets say 2 of the 7 turns... but an earthquake not... a bit to think about in this regard..

The revoltmarker could be used as mechanic for being honorable or dishonorable, or a honortrack or honourladder... the revoltmarkers could be fine. You said: Maybe your ruthlessness track = number of towns that will revolt against you start of next season. Towns are not part on the map but that a certain traittrack may harm or benefit you in some specific situations is neat. But will you revolt more if your head may be chopped of?

Still the easiest way is a big track and adjusting your position with all your deeds... but thats plan B.

Plan A so far.... some small tracks or on-board ladders

ladders could be:

less - most religious
less - most brutal
less - most wealthy
less - most human but that could be mixed with brutal
less - most diplomat

5 seems too much....

I even think the time is ripe to solve this matter also for other games.... more and more i see victorypoints tracks in new games and it feels there is a better solution. Like in a game of bloodrage where suddenly in the 3rd age an achievement gets much much more points. Besides its ragnarok i see no real reason why this should happen. Ganging up against the leader on the track like in Settles is nice but hidden goals to achieve where your enemies try to reveal your real plans is nice too.. i think nicer.
 
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Joska Paszli
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just a brainstorm what about getting dices for achievements where you have to roll these dices each year and you have to roll some sort of combination on it.... something funny like you have to roll the word shogun... so that takes at least 6 dices to collect BUT some achievements get you dices with just a few characters but other achievements you get dices with much more options


these dices have like a
S S H H N joker
or
O O S H G blank
or
N N S S blank blank
on them where the joker allows any character you want

so every winter when these dices are rolled by all players there is some sort of luck element that adds unpredictability like in real life....

How do you like that? DO you know games where you get dices when you get achievements...

other way would be that there is just one dice for all and with every achievement you get to roll it and so you have to collect the word shogun....

so its one die with a shogun character on its side.... of course weird statistics could happen where you would never win even you have the best options .. like in bingo

you could even imagine that these dices are tradable...

Would that be nice or?



 
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Joska Paszli
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Or just cards with a character on it and you have to collect all 6...

The S may be easier to get and N the hardest .... furthermore these cards are tradable but kept hidden unless a ninja spies on them

mmm dunno if that would work...

 
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Adrian Pillai
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Magyarkhan wrote:
No i have never tried scythe... 6 objectives sound much... i am thinking of a combination of achievements where like in eg poker your cosen combinations of things to achieve grants victory...


Absolutely 6 objectives is too much.

Hmm... poker is set collection with bluffing. The set collection can absolutely work and would be very interesting - though thematically with an Asian setting... hmm.

But I am intrigued. Perhaps instead of using basic draw poker, how about using Texas Hold'em rules - players get 2 cards, but make combinations with community cards (a central exposed deck of 3 to 5 cards). This way, 3 (to 5) cards are shared among all players (universal goals), but they hold 2 back as personal goals. How this plays:

The cards are sets - so color coded etc. On these cards are also point values (not as much as real poker or a regular deck - so maybe only 2-7) in interest of being easier (and being not the main game).

Anyone can achieve any of the universal goals. Doesn't matter if it's not you, because achieved universal goals makes those cards 'active'. All you have to do, is make your personal goals (the 2 cards) make a pattern with those universal goals. Make the most matches or most powerful match (e.g: full house beats three of a kind) and you're Shogun. So achieving your personal goals is important, but you still need to either achieve universal goals (or 'help' someone achieve the universal goals that work for you.)

The point values are an incentive to achieve the goal. Perhaps it's a 1 time resource bonus instead of points because points in an area control war game - eh.

Just give it a think. I might use it if I ever do a game like this.

Magyarkhan wrote:
FOr now i am think attack cards allow you just to attack one province and yes after the other moved... option could be to do this if all people execute their moves all together where players with an attackcard first choose secretly a province card where the attack will get place than the provinces are revealed... and the attack executed.
In this way a hired ninja can also become effective in scouting that hidden attack...


I guess that works. Yeah.

Magyarkhan wrote:
Well i want events to be random but perhaps sometimes predictable. You should know when season give a bad or good harvest.... so that one should be revealed after lets say 2 of the 7 turns... but an earthquake not... a bit to think about in this regard..


Understood. Yeah makes sense.

Magyarkhan wrote:
The revoltmarker could be used as mechanic for being honorable or dishonorable, or a honortrack or honourladder... the revoltmarkers could be fine. You said: Maybe your ruthlessness track = number of towns that will revolt against you start of next season. Towns are not part on the map but that a certain traittrack may harm or benefit you in some specific situations is neat.


Yeah, forget I said town. I meant territories or provinces (prefectures?). What I meant was the space you invade.

Magyarkhan wrote:
But will you revolt more if your head may be chopped of?


Logically no, you wouldn't revolt, I agree with you. But we're not logical creatures, not even close. Yes, fear keeps us in line, but desperation (or stupidity) makes us brave. I don't know what mechanism you should use to inflict revolts.

Perhaps you can take the idea from Flash Point: Fire Rescue. The board is grid, with a set of numbers marking each grid (longitude & latitude), rolling two dice which gives you coordinates and voila. Players roll the dice (at the end of their turn?) and a riot happens.

In Flash Point, there's an escalating damage effect. Like a fire can grow via explosion (which spreads to other squares). I'm not confident this is a great solution, but the dice rolling ...

Oh... I just read the 2nd post about dice. Hmm... nevermind.

Magyarkhan wrote:
Still the easiest way is a big track and adjusting your position with all your deeds... but thats plan B.

Plan A so far.... some small tracks or on-board ladders

ladders could be:

less - most religious
less - most brutal
less - most wealth
less - most human but that could be mixed with brutal
less - most diplomat

5 seems too much....


No. Just no. If I'm spending more time keeping track of stuff than playing. No. I'm a warrior/trader/diplomat damn it - not a token pusher!

Magyarkhan wrote:
I even think the time is ripe to solve this matter also for other games.... more and more i see victorypoints tracks in new games and it feels there is a better solution. Like in a game of bloodrage where suddenly in the 3rd age an achievement gets much much more points. Besides its ragnarok i see no real reason why this should happen. Ganging up against the leader on the track like in Settles is nice but hidden goals to achieve where your enemies try to reveal your real plans is nice too.. i think nicer.


Think of it this way. Getting the most money in a game is the original 'victory point' track actually. We're still counting up and person with the most (anything) is winner!

Then there's Scrabble, with it's score pad. And Yahtzee. All arbitrary point values for things/achievements (you made a word with a rare letter/you got lucky... yay).

Point tracks are a way away from the score pad thing. There's a benefit to point tracks - you can react and adjust your strategy based on who is ahead - rather than I have to wait until the end to see if I point salad won or lost. At least that's the main potential benefit, however subtle it may play. Unfortunately, most times in many games, this 'number' is meaningless.

If you really think about it, even Pandemic uses a score track, but it tracks the game's victory rather than the players. This flip, this change, turns the score track from meaningless to meaning everything. And it's awesome.

The challenge is making the points or tracks in your game mean something to the players. Yes, it could mean 'oh, you're ahead I wanna beat you now'. But really, it would be cooler if it meant something more than that.

I've put down notes for a game I'm designing where I had a victory point tracker, surrounding a market row for cards. The conceit I was working on was you gain VP based on your achievements, but you could spend those VP to buy upgrades - on better equipment or personnel or special cards as they were revealed on the market row. You outbid everyone based on how much VP you wanted to spend - if no one else wants it, great, bid 1 VP, get it for 1. But if everyone wants it, or doesn't want you to have it...

However, VP still matters at the end of the game, it's how you win - so you don't want to overpay for those cards, but those cards could help you get so much more VP in future. It's still points in my game, but I wanted it to mean more than just... hey, I'm winning.

Look, I'm not sure if any of my ideas are good or in line with your vision. I think you should look at your original idea again, and work out what you like and want to keep vs. what you want to improve and want to tweak vs. what you hate and want to throw away.

I think we have a lot of ideas on the table, I think it's time to clear some of it out and refocus on what your game is.
 
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Magyarkhan wrote:
just a brainstorm what about getting dices for achievements where you have to roll these dices each year and you have to roll some sort of combination on it.... something funny like you have to roll the word shogun...
Would that be nice or?


No. It would not be nice. Someone can roll SHOGUN on the first time. Or no one could roll it forever and ever.

As much as I would hate to lose quickly, never winning is worse.

And yeah, I understand that players earn their dice. To me you're not going to enjoy it, because after all your hard work, all your thinking and planning and executing (plans and hostages), you still need luck to win? Ugh... no. A game should not remind me just how unfair life is. That's not why we play games. Luck should complicate skill, not replace.

[
Magyarkhan wrote:
]Or just cards with a character on it and you have to collect all 6...

The S may be easier to get and N the hardest .... furthermore these cards are tradable but kept hidden unless a ninja spies on them

mmm dunno if that would work...


Cards may be easier to control compared to dice, but it's still a random dealing at the start. Someone could have the 'N' right from the beginning and would never give it up. Until you crush them or wipe them out. Aside from warfare, I don't see how that mechanic would work. And it renders the idea of unique roles (being a trader or diplomat) useless, if I need to beat you up to convince you to give me the card I need.

If it's about collecting the right cards to guarantee your victory - that will make it the most important aspect of the game. In fact that makes it the only aspect of the game. There is no other victory condition, and therefore there's no other strategy to pursue. Get as many cards as you can, and hope you get the cards you need before someone else gets it, holds on to it to stop you from winning.

Besides I think you've got a ton of cards already - 7 action cards you will use to move your forces / trade empire around or get resources...

I know that these SHOGUN cards will replace the need for objective cards, or are included in the same card - but really if you're trying to make the same patterns... it reduces the replay value by a lot.

Ultimately, go with your instinct. Make the game you want. Don't listen to just my views (I really wish more of the community would chime in, because I'm still learning to design games myself).

It's a challenge I admit, but I think you have a good idea to start with. Go back, don't lose sight of your original vision and then progress forward with your best ideas. Keep the ones that don't work in your back pocket until another day / problem comes up.

Hope that helps.
 
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Joska Paszli
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BTW didnt know i stated that somewhere but moving-attacking with your Daimyo allows more mobility... so blitzkriegs you can do with your Daimyo present, although it makes him vulnerable too. I even think in this move he can make a retreatmove to another friendly province too.

We have the provincecards as a token of ownership which allows it easy to randomize revolts.

Like in settlers you can stack up a bunch of cards at a risk and when your plan succeeds you can make a giant leap at the end of the victorytrack. SUch a thing poeple like, although not being first on the track but suddenly they are in front...

Lets say you pick achievement cards, you can hold max 3. These cards each can say be most religious, most wealthy or conquer this region of land. If you have all three than you "come out" and he wins....

If he dont like certain cards he can replace them or just one in the winterphase at no cost. Well if this player comes out its possible that an other player has a card completed that gives more victorypoints. so while one player completed three which allow to take the win an other player may have more points and steal the win in the end...

All ideas you sum up may result i one of the readers ideas, mine included


 
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