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Subject: Strategic Observations: Gleens rss

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Brent Celmins
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I haven't played the Gleens yet, but I hope to next time I sense the setup is good for them. In the meantime, I've been thinking a lot about how they would play, and I suspect they are very, very strong under the right circumstances. So I'm adding some stray strategic observations here, maybe I'll update them if people start to hash out what makes sense for this faction.

Just getting some thoughts down, here, so take this insight for what it is: spitballing.

Research Tracks
The inability to get QICs for a build-out faction means the Gleens need to shoot up the the Nav track quickly to get anywhere worth going. Building the Academy that allows QICs certainly adds flexibility, but the price is very steep for what will likely 3, maybe 4 QICs the entire game. It appears science is far more valuable for them since it will help the Gleens shoot up the Nav track, and potentially snake up other useful areas.

The 3VP/Gaia research tile seems to work well with the Gleens' innate value for colonizing Gaia planets.

Gaiaforming seems very inefficient for the Gleens. Going up this track is a major opportunity cost for a faction that is hungry for ore and doesn't earn extra power tokens from their PI.

I'm unsure of the science track, since it seems like most factions would want to shoot up that track as fast as possible to get maximum return, and Nav just seems like the obvious one to rush for the Gleens.

AI is essentially converting science for ore, which seems terribly inefficient for the Gleens. Yes, it's 10 ore, but you can get 4 shooting up the Terraforming track, which seems like a better return on science investment for them.

I'm beginning to think the economy track is a little under appreciated, especially if you get to Level 3 which is just a truckload of stuff.


Planetary Institute
I think the Gleens' PI is one of the most interesting in the game. While it doesn't appear to be all that powerful at a glance, it's the most efficient to build.

First, with an instant refund of 2c/1o it's the cheapest PI in the game. Plus you get the added immediate bonus of 1k and a very easy-to-obtain federation token (nothing to sneeze at).

More importantly, the Gleens have the only PI that you can theoretically build in R1 without crippling your economy. If you do manage to build it in R1, you will actually net ore over the course the game, which is a pretty good ROI for a PI that only costs 4c/3o.

Round and Endgame Scoring Tiles
Counterintuitively, I think the Gaia scoring tiles might be bad for the Gleens. This is because the Gleens already get points for colonizing Gaia planets, better if nobody is competing over these scare resources (especially if you choose not to go up the Gaiaforming track).

This is more acutely obvious for the endgame scoring tile, when everyone is going to be competing for Gaia Planets over the course of the entire game. The round scoring tile could actually be useful to the Gleens provided it comes late enough in the game (rd 4-6, perhaps) for the them to scoop up some of the Gaia planets earlier while their opponents wait for the value to pop. Getting three Gaia planets with the correct research tile is worth 15 points to them. Not bad.

As an expansionary faction, Most Sectors and Most Structures seem to be best suited for them. Most planet types is situational, but it strikes me it's neutral-to-bad since you really want to settle Gaia planets.

Most satellites seems good, since a far-flung federation is likely with them. Most federated structures seems also situational.
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Jon Kern
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I think a standard opening of RL + 2 Mines makes sense for the Gleens. Also, the Gleens may be well suited to end Round 1 with RL+TS+2 Mines as they will easily reach Nav 2. In addition to Nav 2 the Gleens should consider getting 1 step in Science. This will give them 3 knowledge income (1 Base + 1 RL + 1 Science track) which they can supplement with round bonuses and their PI federation token.

I think that the Gleens probably want even more Nav and will use their PI federation token to get to the top of the Nav track. Alternatively to increasing Nav beyond 2, you can go for Gaiaforming as the Gleen can't easily gain power for satellites. Gaiaforming helps planets be closer together, gives Gaia Planets, and generates 3 power tokens from outside the game. I think you would pursue this after achieving 3k income and Nav 2 though.
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Brent Celmins
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Limitless333 wrote:

I think that the Gleens probably want even more Nav and will use their PI federation token to get to the top of the Nav track.


This seems right to me.

Opening RL+TS+2M actually seems really easy with them since it only requires one additional ore to their starting resources.
 
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David Stahle
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Great strategic musings.
Limitless333 wrote:
In addition to Nav 2 the Gleens should consider getting 1 step in Science. This will give them 3 knowledge income (1 Base + 1 RL + 1 Science track) which they can supplement with round bonuses and their PI federation token.

I would not invest in a single science track step, spend 4 knowledge there and you will see a return of 5 knowledge over the course of the game. A net profit of 1 knowledge that you gain as late as the last round.
Limitless333 wrote:
you can go for Gaiaforming as the Gleen can't easily gain power for satellites. Gaiaforming helps planets be closer together, gives Gaia Planets, and generates 3 power tokens from outside the game.

Agreed, as Gleens stand to make as much as 5 VP per mine placement on Gaiaplanets I would go for Nav+Gaiaforming upgrades in the first round. That way you will get 5 (cheap expansion) additional Gaiaplanets to build on for an extra 25 VP + round scoring + bonus tile scoring + end game scoring.
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Flo P
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Gleen can indeed be very powerful and are one of the factions that might require the rest of the table to conspire against them in order to keep them in check (snatching away gaia planets).

I think it is interesting to see how the designers approached VP generating sources in this game. In TM, I always felt like the races with inherent VP engines (apart from Fakirs) were better then the others. FAV11 was also so powerful because it was basically only limited by how much dwellings you had left.

In GP on the other hand, Gleen are the only race with an inherent VP engine. So if we are to look for inbalances in this game, this faction might be one of the first suspects that comes to mind, however their engine is fragile by desgin due to the scarcity of gaia planets.

Also no basic tech gives VP for simply putting buildings on the board in GP, those can only be gotten from advanced techs, but those are usually acquired too late to be that useful, since they lose value over the course of the game. I have never seen someone putting those to great use (max ~15 points from them in our games so far, easily outperformed by the instant 'points per X' techs), so I think that Gleen might actually be a good candidate to get more out of them because of their early fed token.
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Jan Kahánek
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you can also rush some of the advanced technology...
 
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Jon Kern
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I'm concerned that the Gleens may have trouble advancing on the research board without their 2k academy or multiple RLs. I agree its inefficient to use 4k to move up on science, but I have found that every faction wants at least 24 points in research steps and many factions can score 40+. I think the Gleen want the top spot on Gaiaforming and Navigation. To accomplish this they need 9 tech steps. What are your thoughts on accomplishing this? I will theorize as I have time and repot back if I come up with a good line.
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Brent Celmins
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Limitless333 wrote:
I'm concerned that the Gleens may have trouble advancing on the research board without their 2k academy or multiple RLs. I agree its inefficient to use 4k to move up on science, but I have found that every faction wants at least 24 points in research steps and many factions can score 40+. I think the Gleen want the top spot on Gaiaforming and Navigation. To accomplish this they need 9 tech steps. What are your thoughts on accomplishing this? I will theorize as I have time and repot back if I come up with a good line.


My core question here:

How fast can the Gleens realistically expect to get to Step 4 of NAV without ceding board position to other build-out factions?

And... how necessary is it to get that high ASAP? Is NAV2 enough for the first two rounds while they go up Gaiaforming and maybe even knowledge? Am I wrong in how important NAV3 is for them?

Going up the research track as high as step 3 yields incredible dividends for any faction (guaranteed one research bump per round/3pwr/3VP), but the opportunity cost early is very high if the faction is desperate to go up other research tracks.
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Jon Kern
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If you look at the standard position of the game boards from the rulebook, Nav 2 is sufficient for colonizing 3-4 Gaia Planets and 4-5 Purple Planets depending on the number of players. You don't need higher Nav early on, but it will be necessary to colonize additional sectors take late game Gaia Planets and such. I would want to get the Lost Planet by round 3 if possible and would want to focus on Gaiaforming starting on round 1.

Edit: I think getting to level 3 of the GaiaForming track after securing Nav 2 is of greater priority as there are enough Purple Planets to utilize 3 Gaia Projects Round 1: 1, Round 2: 2. After which, You would want to get more Navigation.
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Brent Celmins
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Limitless333 wrote:
If you look at the standard position of the game boards from the rulebook, Nav 2 is sufficient for colonizing 4 Gaia Planets and 3-4 Purple Planets depending on the number of players. You don't need higher Nav early on, but it will be necessary to colonize additional sectors take late game Gaia Planets and such. I would want to get the Lost Planet by round 4 and would want to focus on Gaiaforming starting on round 1.


So that's a RL opening, then, so you can get to NAV2 and GF1 in R1.

If you're lucky, the 1k/1c income tile is usefully placed to go up at least one of those tracks, which I suppose is a 5/9 chance.
 
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David Stahle
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I do agree that a RL+TS+M or preferably a RL+TS+M+M looks promising to Gleen ending the turn with NAV 2 and GAIA 1.

I would probably open with the 3VP/Gaia research tile and thereby postpone my second RL (or Academy) build. The focus then will be to secure good map positions with NAV 2 and building many mines and trading stations for income.

The challenges going forward will be to get some power tokens to utilize leech income and powerful power actions.

I am curious to why you think a mid game lost planet is so desirable to Gleens? My focus would lie on the Gaia 5 top position instead.
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Jon Kern
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Quote:
I am curious to why you think a mid game lost planet is so desirable to Gleens? My focus would lie on the Gaia 5 top position instead.


I think you strongly desire reaching the top spot of both tracks. I desire the lost planet and Nav 4 so I can easily access virtually every Gaia Planet and Purple Planet on the map. Additionally, I think Navigation and Gaiaforming are the only tech tracks that the Gleen can contest and I want to score at least 24 points from the tracks. I assume that the Gleen will use 2 federation tokens to reach the top of these two tracks and 1 federation token claiming an advance tech. Additionally, I want to score using my ability + 3 points per Gaia settled 10+ times. I think using this approach allows for this.
 
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Flo P
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kahy wrote:
you can also rush some of the advanced technology...


Either I am missing the point of your comment or you simply didn't read mine thouroghly . I proposed that Gleen is one of the few factions that can rush an advanced tech reliably...
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Either of the yellow factions can rush pre-existing Gaia planets early in the game if they choose to do so. Yellow planets have some of the best placements in relation to Gaia planets.
 
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Robert
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I think that most factions desire to grab the Lost Planet, as most want to progress to Navigation range 2 early on, which is half way to level 5. In my games so far, there were two research tracks which saw 2+ players racing up on them and taking extra efforts to reach level 5 just before the other player(s) do: Navigation and Terraforming. And it happened more often on Navigation than on Terraforming.

Which is interesting, as in Navigation, range 2 is nice spot to sit for most of the game, whereas in Terraforming, 2 ore per terraforming step is almost always just an intermediate step to reach the 1-ore-per-terraforming-step level (pretty much as it is in Terra Mystica: ship+1 may suffice for most of the game, but if you advance on digging once, you'll almost always advance it a 2nd time soon after the first step).
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Space Trucker
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DocCool wrote:
I think that most factions desire to grab the Lost Planet, as most want to progress to Navigation range 2 early on, which is half way to level 5. In my games so far, there were two research tracks which saw 2+ players racing up on them and taking extra efforts to reach level 5 just before the other player(s) do: Navigation and Terraforming. And it happened more often on Navigation than on Terraforming.
Generally, if one is already at level 2, the two steps to level 3 and 4 become pretty interesting, as they also score 4 points each. This can be an 8vp delta compared to starting a fresh tech.

Reaching Level 4 Economy or Science early is also strong, level 5 of both of them is obviously a late game target only. Higher advances of AI or Gaia are usually more mid-late game stuff.
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Jan B.
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Played some solo games with Gleen. Here are some of my musings:

- Gaia planet scoring possibilites are the main criteria to chose or not to chose them. This means round/final scoring and round boosters, but also where the Gaia Planet: 3Pts Tech tile is situated.
- When lots of green planet cards are in the game, the Gleen will most likely score high
- Quite flexible regarding the round scoring choreography. Typically good start with SL-TS-M-M possible and upgrade to PI in round 2.
- Easy expansion to whatever time the round scoring Gaia tiles is coming up
- Terraforming research tree is usually not the first way to go (you need ore to expand to Gaia planets), which makes round 1 tricky to a certain extent (you don't want to waste a knowledge step to get 2 ore)
- Coming to the 2 ore: you need some additional ore to make SL-TS-M-M work
- Power Actions can be scarce, especially if chosen (a) a Non-early-PI-route, (b) having an early expansion with low head counts, (c) using Gaia Formers much
- Are not very strong in Research/Knowledge area
- Will not take many QIC actions (if at all)
- Not heavy with federations when they expand. This also makes the power management tricky, as Gleen need their power to connect their Gaia planets to federations. PI helps with federation tokens as others have more

Summary: Gleen seem to be quite strong when they can combine some Gaia scoring tiles and are able to muddle themselves through the power vs knowledge vs credit conflict.

 
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Jon Kern
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Quote:
I think that most factions desire to grab the Lost Planet, as most want to progress to Navigation range 2 early on, which is half way to level 5. In my games so far, there were two research tracks which saw 2+ players racing up on them and taking extra efforts to reach level 5 just before the other player(s) do: Navigation and Terraforming. And it happened more often on Navigation than on Terraforming.

Which is interesting, as in Navigation, range 2 is nice spot to sit for most of the game, whereas in Terraforming, 2 ore per terraforming step is almost always just an intermediate step to reach the 1-ore-per-terraforming-step level (pretty much as it is in Terra Mystica: ship+1 may suffice for most of the game, but if you advance on digging once, you'll almost always advance it a 2nd time soon after the first step).


I don't think you need the Lost Planet as the Gleen, but I do think you will have 3-4 federation tokens over the course of the game usually. This means that if you fail to win the race to the lost planet you can simply grab the 12 point tile as you won't need the extra research step. You still probably want 2 green ones as you want the top of Gaia forming and want a well positioned advance tech on Navigation or Gaiaforming.

Quote:
Coming to the 2 ore: you need some additional ore to make SL-TS-M-M work


I think you just skip on the extra TS on round 1 if you can't get the O:2 Power action. However, in a 3 or 4 player game its certainly possible to pull off. I wouldn't prioritize this piece of the opening. It may be worth it to construct the income less mine still on round 1 to protect the Gaia Planet from other players.
 
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Jan B.
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Yes, it's not so easy. But the advantage for next round is +3 credits, while the 3rd mine is offering nothing.
 
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Space Trucker
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kent_bro wrote:
Yes, it's not so easy. But the advantage for next round is +3 credits, while the 3rd mine is offering nothing.

It's also viable to go for research center and 4 mines instead. One additional Ore is roughly worth as much as 3 additional Coins (if we compare free actions, which are both okay). Building 4 mines is not easier, though. Still it's possible (wasn't that rare in my games so far).

All in all Gleen are pretty flexible here, as they can easily get navigation level 2 and don't need the Planetrary Institute. Generally I'd consider all of the following very good starts, depending on setup and board position:
- RL + TS + 2M (should always be good)
- RL + 4M (should always be good if the map and booster allow to build 3 Mines)
- 2RS or 1AC + 1M (should always be good if there are two attractive tech tiles - usually AC + 1M is better, but requires one more Ore - also depends on Boosters and setup)
- RL + PI (should be good if they can become one early federation)

In my last 4 player game with Gleen game I started with Knowledge AC + 1M, which worked pretty fine (second place with 184 points - only beaten by strong Androids with 198).

Of course nothing is lost if the round is only ended with
- RL + 2M
- RL + 3M (no additional income, but saves the planet, can grant leech, can if needed make you pass later for better booster and usually you'd build it next turn anyway)

TM experience also tells that - while strong starts can snowball heavily - it's often not smart to overinvest (burning too heavily, going for tech you don't really want,...) in slightly improving a start.

Generally I would avoid starting with no RS/AC, as I don't like completely forgoing tech. But possibly an economically strong lowtech start like PI + TS + 2M can work well, too, especially with Gleen, who don't necessarily need much tech to score high.
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Robert
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kent_bro wrote:
- Gaia planet scoring possibilites are the main criteria to chose or not to chose them. This means round/final scoring and round boosters, but also where the Gaia Planet: 3Pts Tech tile is situated.
- When lots of green planet cards are in the game, the Gleen will most likely score high
I'm not sure whether your musings are especially related to 2p.

Such setups also attract Terrans, who have a better start to grab Transdim planets. And in 3p/4p, it's quite likely that every player will grab one of the existing Gaia planets anyway, leaving few for the Gleen to benefit from their "can colonize Gaia planets with an ore" ability (after all they first have to use one turn to upgrade their Navigation to range 2).
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Robert
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SpaceTrucker wrote:
TM experience also tells that - while strong starts can snowball heavily - it's often not smart to overinvest (burning too heavily, going for tech you don't really want,...) in slightly improving a start.
This!

Squeezing out that extra mine/upgrade in round 1 just to have a very short round 2 due to lack of resources is rarely worth it. I reckon that the strength of your engine at the end of round 2 is more important than that at the end of round 1, even if it earned fewer VP.
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Kester J
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Late to this thread, but I think I’ll dissent a bit here: I’ve seen the Gleens played a few times now (two of those times by very good TM players), and they’ve always flopped. I agree with James above that Xenos can execute a Gaia rush too – and I’d actually go further and say that almost any faction can. Pushing up to level 2 on the Nav track, settling two Gaia planets and possibly building a trade station is a solid opening round for anyone, and I see people go for it a lot. Gleens are by no means the only faction that can do it.

In light of that, how do the Gleens stack up against others in terms of executing this opening? They start with one extra ore (from the nav track QIC), then spend two ore to colonise the Gaia planets. Other factions have two QIC (one from starting resources, one from the Nav track), and use those to colonise Gaia planets. So Gleens actually end up one ore down compared to other factions with this opening. What they can do is go for the Gaia planets more quickly than other factions (except the Ambas). That’s a slight advantage, but not a major one: anyone willing to spend 2 QIC to beat them to one specific Gaia planet can still do so, and this can sometimes cut off expansion hard if you were planning to hop from planet to planet.

Beyond the opening it gets harder: because the 2-Nav+Gaia planets opening is generally good, it’s often the case that the pre-existing Gaia planets on the board will be gone by the end of round 2, or round 3 at the latest. At that point Gleens have very little ability to speak of, and still can’t get QICs. Yes, the PI can let you get a federation token early, but Gleens aren’t optimally placed to exploit that because they aren’t focused on tech: realistically it will either get you the Lost Planet, or the advanced tech from Navigation. That’s certainly not nothing, and the Lost Planet is probably the best tech-level-5 reward going - but most races can get a federation token by round 3, which is when you’ll usually be able to use yours as the Gleens. So the benefit is that you can usually exploit it on the first action of round 3 rather than later in that round.

Overall I'm not really convinced that the Gleens' abilities make up for not being able to take QICs: their economy game is weak to OK, their tech game is the same, and their advantage in claiming early Gaia planets is slight. They'll get 6-14VP from Gaia planets over the course of the game, but that's fairly small potatoes in Gaia, where winning scores are usually in the 150+ range. I'm hoping to be proven wrong as I play more, but so far my impressions of them are not good.
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Jon Kern
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After thinking about The Gleens a bit more it seems like it might be better to focus on the Knowledge track round 1 instead of a Gaia Former. I think getting Gaia Formers tend to help factions expand later in the game while existing planets are gobbled up in the early rounds.
 
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Jon Kern
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Quote:
Late to this thread, but I think I’ll dissent a bit here: I’ve seen the Gleens played a few times now (two of those times by very good TM players), and they’ve always flopped. I agree with James above that Xenos can execute a Gaia rush too – and I’d actually go further and say that almost any faction can. Pushing up to level 2 on the Nav track, settling two Gaia planets and possibly building a trade station is a solid opening round for anyone, and I see people go for it a lot. Gleens are by no means the only faction that can do it.

In light of that, how do the Gleens stack up against others in terms of executing this opening? They start with one extra ore (from the nav track QIC), then spend two ore to colonise the Gaia planets. Other factions have two QIC (one from starting resources, one from the Nav track), and use those to colonise Gaia planets. So Gleens actually end up one ore down compared to other factions with this opening. What they can do is go for the Gaia planets more quickly than other factions (except the Ambas). That’s a slight advantage, but not a major one: anyone willing to spend 2 QIC to beat them to one specific Gaia planet can still do so, and this can sometimes cut off expansion hard if you were planning to hop from planet to planet.

Beyond the opening it gets harder: because the 2-Nav+Gaia planets opening is generally good, it’s often the case that the pre-existing Gaia planets on the board will be gone by the end of round 2, or round 3 at the latest. At that point Gleens have very little ability to speak of, and still can’t get QICs. Yes, the PI can let you get a federation token early, but Gleens aren’t optimally placed to exploit that because they aren’t focused on tech: realistically it will either get you the Lost Planet, or the advanced tech from Navigation. That’s certainly not nothing, and the Lost Planet is probably the best tech-level-5 reward going - but most races can get a federation token by round 3, which is when you’ll usually be able to use yours as the Gleens. So the benefit is that you can usually exploit it on the first action of round 3 rather than later in that round.

Overall I'm not really convinced that the Gleens' abilities make up for not being able to take QICs: their economy game is weak to OK, their tech game is the same, and their advantage in claiming early Gaia planets is slight. They'll get 6-14VP from Gaia planets over the course of the game, but that's fairly small potatoes in Gaia, where winning scores are usually in the 150+ range. I'm hoping to be proven wrong as I play more, but so far my impressions of them are not good.


I think this analysis overlooks the Gleens main benefit of being able to push up on the Nav track quickly and claim both the Lost Planet and the advance tech with only 1 federation + their PI federation token.
 
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