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Warhammer Underworlds: Shadespire» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Cleave? rss

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♥Dust Pixie♥
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Why are there so many cleave cards in the Stormguard's preconstructed deck? It doesn't do anything against the reavers unless they guard, right?

Cleave is a weird ability... it's so matchup dependent. The ceiling isn't particularly high but the floor is so low, it can be almost useless.
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David Hubbard
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I believe there's an upgrade for Garrek and/or the Sepulchral Warden that lets them use block results, plus the guard action you mentioned.

Cleave might not be that useful if your opponent uses dodge like the Reavers and Sepulchral Guard do, but it's very strong against the Stormcast in a mirror match, or the Orruks. Presumably more warbands will use block in the future.
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♥Dust Pixie♥
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Yeah, but… it felt especially out of place in the precon deck for the precon game.
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Kevin Outlaw
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snth wrote:
Yeah, but… it felt especially out of place in the precon deck for the precon game.


Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure there are only two cleave cards in the precon deck - one upgrade, one ploy.
 
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I had the same impression, that the cleave upgrades should not have been included in the pre constructed deck. Also, the ability name itself is kinda misleading. In DnD cleave is an ability that allows your melee attacks to hit adjacent enemies. Should have been named Armor Piercing, Pierce, Precise
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Christoph Weber
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nailernforce wrote:
I had the same impression, that the cleave upgrades should not have been included in the pre constructed deck. Also, the ability name itself is kinda misleading. In DnD cleave is an ability that allows your melee attacks to hit adjacent enemies. Should have been named Armor Piercing, Pierce, Precise


Semantically, the use of cleave in Shadespire makes much more sense. I'd say it's DnD that has it wrong here.
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♥Dust Pixie♥
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure there are only two cleave cards in the precon deck - one upgrade, one ploy.


"Only" 10% of the cards are completely useless in the precon matchup?!

webs1 wrote:
Semantically, the use of cleave in Shadespire makes much more sense. I'd say it's DnD that has it wrong here.


D&D is my favorite game but yes. You're right, webs.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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snth wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure there are only two cleave cards in the precon deck - one upgrade, one ploy.


"Only" 10% of the cards are completely useless in the precon matchup?!



Two doesn't really seem like "so many" to me. It seems about right, and I can't say I found them useless.

As ploys are only one-shots anyway, they're usually quite situational. There's usually at least one moment in each fight where a single attack with cleave is beneficial.

Reavers are a bit squishy, and I find they tend to use the guard action a bit more so they can survive to the end phase for various holding objectives.

The upgrade works with Steelheart, who can pound on several people at once. That increases the odds that he's going to come into contact with someone on guard at some point.

Cleave is handy when facing a bloodslicked Garrek on guard.

But part of these games is playing to your own style and finding out what works for you. Some people will say a card is useless, others will say it was the card that won them a game. Maybe I would feel differently about those cards if I was still using them, but I'm mainly playing my own orruk deck at the moment.
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Christoph Weber
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
snth wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure there are only two cleave cards in the precon deck - one upgrade, one ploy.


"Only" 10% of the cards are completely useless in the precon matchup?!



Two doesn't really seem like "so many" to me. It seems about right, and I can't say I found them useless.

As ploys are only one-shots anyway, they're usually quite situational. There's usually at least one moment in each fight where a single attack with cleave is beneficial.

Reavers are a bit squishy, and I find they tend to use the guard action a bit more so they can survive to the end phase for various holding objectives.

The upgrade works with Steelheart, who can pound on several people at once. That increases the odds that he's going to come into contact with someone on guard at some point.

Cleave is handy when facing a bloodslicked Garrek on guard.

But part of these games is playing to your own style and finding out what works for you. Some people will say a card is useless, others will say it was the card that won them a game. Maybe I would feel differently about those cards if I was still using them, but I'm mainly playing my own orruk deck at the moment.


I think the underlying issue here is that (as someone pointed out eloquently in their review here on bgg) the preconstructed decks aren't that great. After you grasped the basics, you should be able to build a better deck than them in short order.
Maybe the starter decks are built foremost to give players an overview of existing mechanics, and not to be efficient?
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Tom Hill
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Even identifying that the card isnt very effective against Reavers may be a worthy lesson for new players, so they can easily pick another card to swap it out with.
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Kevin Outlaw
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webs1 wrote:


I think the underlying issue here is that (as someone pointed out eloquently in their review here on bgg) the preconstructed decks aren't that great. After you grasped the basics, you should be able to build a better deck than them in short order.
Maybe the starter decks are built foremost to give players an overview of existing mechanics, and not to be efficient?


I think they're absolutely fine against each other - and like I said, I was usually able to find a use for cleave in those early games. But yeah, if you put one of those precon decks against a skilled player with a finely-crafted deck from the full pool of options, I think you'd be having a hard time.

I'm not a great player by any means, but I do see the benefits of having a spread of skill options in a deck, to handle whatever your opponent may throw at you; I think that's the general style of play these precon decks are going for: The "Jack of all trades." That being said, my general deck construction style is to build what I want my guys to do, not build to counter what I think my opponent might do.
 
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David Hubbard
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snth wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure there are only two cleave cards in the precon deck - one upgrade, one ploy.


"Only" 10% of the cards are completely useless in the precon matchup?!


Except that, as mentioned in several replies, they're not "completely useless". They're situational... maybe you'll find a use for them in a game, maybe not. You might draw one or both in any given game, or you might not.

The pre-built decks they give you are meant to ease you into the game without having to delve into deck building. I do agree those cards aren't optimal in the pre-built "environment" but it's not a big deal for a learning game or two.

The core set gives you enough extra neutral and warband-specific to easily swap those two cards out if you want once you've played a game or two with the pre-built decks and are comfortable with the game.

 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Daverman wrote:
snth wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but I'm pretty sure there are only two cleave cards in the precon deck - one upgrade, one ploy.


"Only" 10% of the cards are completely useless in the precon matchup?!


Except that, as mentioned in several replies, they're not "completely useless". They're situational... maybe you'll find a use for them in a game, maybe not. You might draw one or both in any given game, or you might not.



This may be one of those "group think" situations. The OP has another thread stating that there's no point guarding. If you play with a group of people who use reavers and don't see the point in guarding, then cleave is going to be useless. I tend to see reavers guarding quite frequently, so cleave becomes more appealing.
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♥Dust Pixie♥
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Yeah, it could be... But, just to clarify: I've been guarding a lot, then I ran the numbers on guarding & made that post after that. I realized that cleave and guard are seldom, rather than never, worth their price.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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snth wrote:
Yeah, it could be... But, just to clarify: I've been guarding a lot, then I ran the numbers on guarding & made that post after that. I realized that cleave and guard are seldom, rather than never, worth their price.


Yeah, it looks like we just play very differently, because I'm never going to see guard as being seldom worth it. As long as you don't charge, your guard stays on for the whole round, so if you do it as your first action that model can soak some punishment against multiple attacks. A guarding model with some support is almost immovable, which is essential for many take-and-hold objectives, or objectives where you need to keep a model alive. It becomes even more appealing as you lose models, as you tend to have a bit more wriggle-room with your activations.
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