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Champions of Midgard: Valhalla» Forums » Rules

Subject: Few issues with this expansion rss

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michele sommi
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After playing a few games I noticed that some issues need to be addressed. Some of them have been discussed in other threads.
One premise. As a gaming group, we like much better not using rerolls from favors of gods.

1) Blame negative bonus is not enough. Some cards exploit the cap at 6 and they are all very powerful cards: seidr Drauger (at start of each combat round take one blame) and loki's compass (take one blame and ignore negative journey cards) both give benefits that greatly outweight penalty. Easy cash with no drawback, Bergrisars can be challenged with no money in hand, to name another. Fight the troll space become useless unless you need to go first at blessings. Even worse, it becomes a menacing penalty for the players who are not exployting the blame cap.

If Pesta is in play (end game one point x blame in play), things get worse. We had a game where Pesta alone provided 34 points.

2)Some leaders abilities are too powerful when compared to others:

Ullr ability to generate permanent pink dice is too powerful.

Ragnhild ability to upgrade one dice multiple times and reroll it is way way too powerful. Let's not forget that her base ability to take a black or red dice from Jarl's Longhouse is already pretty good.

Worse of all, Gylfir ability to generate multiple rewards ( read dice) from merchant ship is insanely strong when sent alone to fight the seidr drauger. And this brings back to issue number 1.

My suggested solutions:

1) Blame negative bonus must be raised at least to 8/-36. I will do more testing on this.

2) Ullr: I think this dice should be temporary just for the fight, leaving the ability to gain a pink token from it. Net gain : likely won battle, plus kill soak and pink token. Good enough for me.

Raghhild ability should be limited to red or black dice. I would also consider rolling her before battle to avoid the reroll. Strong enough as it is.

Gylfir ability should be balanced by correcting blame level.

I think that few corrections need to be made to an otherwise excellent game.

any opinion ?

thanks


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Joshua Lobkowicz
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Hi Michele,

Thanks for your appreciation of our game and thoughtful consideration of proposed changes.

Certainly the blame cap is problematic with the expansion and some savvy players have found ways to exploit it. An official errata will be made to this as soon as we have found an optimal solution.

At present, I recommend that a house rule be used where all blame beyond the 6th are counted at -6 VP just as the 6th would be, with no final cap on it. This is not the final "official" solution - just my thoughts on it at present.

As for the leaders, I certainly enjoy seeing other takes on theri relative power levels and if adjustments are needed. Though I will mention that they are not meant to be perfectly balanced. Since they are drafted in reverse turn order at the start of the game, the player in the worst position (going last) should get a more powerful leader.

Enjoy the game!

Joshua Lobkowicz
Grey Fox Games
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Juraj Sulik
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Karmic_devil wrote:
Hi Michele,
Certainly the blame cap is problematic with the expansion and some savvy players have found ways to exploit it. An official errata will be made to this as soon as we have found an optimal solution.

Maybe the players with 7+ blame at the end of the game should be eliminated from the final scoring? That would make that Seidr Draugr scary as hell.

This would require some blame removing possibilities though to be playable.
Something like public reversed 'Beg' action:
Donate - Spend 1 resource (gold/food/wood) to remove 1 blame token.
 
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Russell Malo
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Karmic_devil wrote:
Hi Michele,

Thanks for your appreciation of our game and thoughtful consideration of proposed changes.

Certainly the blame cap is problematic with the expansion and some savvy players have found ways to exploit it. An official errata will be made to this as soon as we have found an optimal solution.

At present, I recommend that a house rule be used where all blame beyond the 6th are counted at -6 VP just as the 6th would be, with no final cap on it. This is not the final "official" solution - just my thoughts on it at present.

As for the leaders, I certainly enjoy seeing other takes on theri relative power levels and if adjustments are needed. Though I will mention that they are not meant to be perfectly balanced. Since they are drafted in reverse turn order at the start of the game, the player in the worst position (going last) should get a more powerful leader.

Enjoy the game!

Joshua Lobkowicz
Grey Fox Games


Because I've seen (and used) Blame manipulation catapult someone to victory, I've used this exact rule. Seems to curb the "blame greed" strategy. Haven't used it enough to really feel it out as a fair deterrent though.
 
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Ruben de Kemp
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Yuri wrote:

Maybe the players with 7+ blame at the end of the game should be eliminated from the final scoring? That would make that Seidr Draugr scary as hell.



I recall proposing this in another thread in this forum, though I think I used +10 blame tokens as the highwater mark. It was pointed out (truthfully) that there were enough mechanisms in the game by which other players could force you into situations where you could collect this much blame over 8 rounds without being able to do anything about it -- the troll, gossip stall, etc.

Perhaps 10 blame isn't the right value but I still like that idea of capping it with a forced elimination (by that point I feel like thematically you are showing your true colours to the citizens of Midgard and they chase you out of town, denying you a chance at the Jarl's throne). Maybe 12 or 15 is a better figure -- something that doesn't automatically let you be eliminated by normal game mechanics but DOES prevent you from trying to game the Seidr Draugr?
 
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rdekemp wrote:
Yuri wrote:

Maybe the players with 7+ blame at the end of the game should be eliminated from the final scoring? That would make that Seidr Draugr scary as hell.



I recall proposing this in another thread in this forum, though I think I used +10 blame tokens as the highwater mark. It was pointed out (truthfully) that there were enough mechanisms in the game by which other players could force you into situations where you could collect this much blame over 8 rounds without being able to do anything about it -- the troll, gossip stall, etc.

Perhaps 10 blame isn't the right value but I still like that idea of capping it with a forced elimination (by that point I feel like thematically you are showing your true colours to the citizens of Midgard and they chase you out of town, denying you a chance at the Jarl's throne). Maybe 12 or 15 is a better figure -- something that doesn't automatically let you be eliminated by normal game mechanics but DOES prevent you from trying to game the Seidr Draugr?


good points!

Being eliminated for too much blame is a cool concept but it is a dangerous one.
The blame mechanic already encourages piling the blame on 1 player to make them lose the most points, eliminating a player is harsh, even if the player is allowed to finish the game, if he knows he can't reduce his blame by the end, i can imagine a frustrated player that might not want to finish the game.

 
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Atnier Rodriguez
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Automatic player elimination shood be avoided at all costs unless the game lasts 15 minutes or less.
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michele sommi
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Just replace the beggar tile with the one to reduce one blame. That should give plenty of chances for the players to reduce their blame below elimination. I would actually love a mini expansion with buildings on par with current game strength level. Rulewise I'm sure they'll do a good job rebalancing the game.
 
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michelesommi wrote:
Just replace the beggar tile with the one to reduce one blame. That should give plenty of chances for the players to reduce their blame below elimination. I would actually love a mini expansion with buildings on par with current game strength level. Rulewise I'm sure they'll do a good job rebalancing the game.


can you elaborate?
 
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michele sommi
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Hi,
I'm suggesting to accept the rule of elimination at 9-10 blames (end game) while adopting the option to have permanently in play the tile to reduce blame by one for one action. This way there are options to reduce blame below elimination while leaving the chance to "abuse" a bit the blame track. Still blames need to increase their negative bonus above 6.
 
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Ruben de Kemp
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Indeed, blame still needs to matter. While I believe that exploiting the Seidr Draugr is against the spirit of the game and anyone who continues to rack up blame fighting it indefinitely thematically deserves to lose, I also agree with the sentiment that your opponents using blame as a potential means to force you out of the game sucks.

I'm not talking elimination so much as an instant thing as soon as you reach some number, but as an end-game consideration when determining the winner.

Let's take this scenario:
Let's set that number even higher -- let's say 20 blame tokens, without making any other changes to the current blame token scale. At the end of the game, anyone who has acquired 20 blame tokens cannot win. (I'm seriously having echoes of Cleopatra and the Society of Architects here).

This way we allow the rest of the game to flow as it always has...you can fight the troll, or ignore it...sometimes you can force blame on your opponents, and it's up to them to either accept it or cast it off in some way. Then, if the Seidr Draugr happens to pop up and someone is playing as Asmundr, they can choose to fight and use the mechanics available to them to prolong the fight -- but they can't do it forever!

As has been pointed out in other discussions, it's not like that fight can last forever anyways -- statistically the player will run out of favour tokens and be forced to kill the Seidr Draugr at some point...I think a 20-blame limit helps to ensure that player simply won't be able to get too far ahead on points with this exploit either. The fight becomes less of an exploit and more of an interesting "push your luck" mechanic, which I think would be acceptable.
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rdekemp wrote:
Indeed, blame still needs to matter. While I believe that exploiting the Seidr Draugr is against the spirit of the game and anyone who continues to rack up blame fighting it indefinitely thematically deserves to lose, I also agree with the sentiment that your opponents using blame as a potential means to force you out of the game sucks.

I'm not talking elimination so much as an instant thing as soon as you reach some number, but as an end-game consideration when determining the winner.

Let's take this scenario:
Let's set that number even higher -- let's say 20 blame tokens, without making any other changes to the current blame token scale. At the end of the game, anyone who has acquired 20 blame tokens cannot win. (I'm seriously having echoes of Cleopatra and the Society of Architects here).

This way we allow the rest of the game to flow as it always has...you can fight the troll, or ignore it...sometimes you can force blame on your opponents, and it's up to them to either accept it or cast it off in some way. Then, if the Seidr Draugr happens to pop up and someone is playing as Asmundr, they can choose to fight and use the mechanics available to them to prolong the fight -- but they can't do it forever!

As has been pointed out in other discussions, it's not like that fight can last forever anyways -- statistically the player will run out of favour tokens and be forced to kill the Seidr Draugr at some point...I think a 20-blame limit helps to ensure that player simply won't be able to get too far ahead on points with this exploit either. The fight becomes less of an exploit and more of an interesting "push your luck" mechanic, which I think would be acceptable.


This does make sense.
I think the easy "solution" for the seidr draugr (SDr) is that in each round that you don't hit him you lose 1 die.
it does kill this strategy - perhaps too completely, but it kills the loophole.

I don't mind the idea of spending an action to get rid of blame whenever you want it (call it the "community outreach" tile), i think this is super expensive in most cases.

Lastly as the owner of the game, I am the one to be blamed in the first 2-3 rounds of the game and whenever it isn't clear whom should get the token. I already have to overcome all that blame without other players' ability to blame me to death.
I think that the basis of the SDr is a good thing, a player is being blamed by everyone and cannot find a way to get rid of all the blame, he decides to go fight the SDr and gain some points because the cost isn't too high. If that player happens to be really unlucky and somehow rolls blank after blank he can end up with tons f blame that he will never be able to get rid of. You can't quit fights in this game, bad luck against a SDr could lead to game over with an elimination rule (even if it is later).

In the last game I played I racked up 6 blame from the various troll hunters, the only reason the other players stopped putting blame on me was cause i reached the max. I won with 1 point, the first time I have won maxed out on blame, I think I did enough to win, I don't necessarily think an overall change must be made, except that Asmunder (specifically) should not abuse the favors with he leader.
If someone can find a a variant/house rule that stops just that, that would be best. (even something simple like the SDr runs away after 6 rounds of battle)
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michelesommi wrote:
Hi,
I'm suggesting to accept the rule of elimination at 9-10 blames (end game) while adopting the option to have permanently in play the tile to reduce blame by one for one action. This way there are options to reduce blame below elimination while leaving the chance to "abuse" a bit the blame track. Still blames need to increase their negative bonus above 6.


Hi sorry I wasn't more specific.

Can you elaborate on this:

Quote:
I would actually love a mini expansion with buildings on par with current game strength level.
 
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michele sommi
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I think that it's almost always better to gather resources some where else rather than from buildings. There is a number of them that actually never get selected by any player for the whole game. The one to reduce blame by one, for example, would be revamped by new rulings on blame cap.
 
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