Marcus Aurelius
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We just had a game where as soon as N'orr had Dreadnoughts, they were impossible to fight. The battles versus them were disgusting. They don't seem to be particularly weak in the early game to offset such a formidable presence in the late game. Dreadnoughts are already the way to go in TI4 as it is, and now building them as N'orr is such a no-brainer, while building them against them ( or god forbid - your flagship ) is something you don't want to do.

The fact that the N'orr player can soak a hit with their Dreadnought and then destroy your best 2 ships just means they will outright win every battle with ease. The best you can hope for is to go carriers + mass fighters, but they can adjust with destroyers, or at worst, force you to go even by using suicide to wipe your carriers out so your fighters die after the fight. And it's not that easy to mass fighters for most factions in the first place. Saar and the plant dudes can do it as they gradually produce on the move, but that's about it.

I just find the ability impossible to play against and thus not very fun at all, even if as a whole the N'orr are not themselves the strongest race ( although honestly, I hold them as one of the strongest at the moment ).

I'm curious about other player's experience facing or fielding this monstrosity.
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mikael mordai
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They dont soak a hit they destroy one of their dreads...
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Simon Kamber
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mordai wrote:
They dont soak a hit they destroy one of their dreads...


IIRC, they can do both (sustain damage and then destroy the damaged dreadnought to trigger the ability)
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Badoux Jerome
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In fact I don't even find it so good.

Sacrificing an advanced dreadnought to kill another ship it i worth vs War Suns and other Dreadnoughts and that's it...

So the opponent just have to build a fleet of cruisers and destroyers and your exotrireme is worthless....

(remember it is AFTER the round of combat not at the beginning) so :

He will take the hits with fighters therefore destroying carrier will be not so good (except if the oppponent is £Naalu and has a lot of them for <a lot of fighters then it might be cool).

using it for carriers and destroyers is not worth much.

A intelligent opponent wil avoid coming at you with dreadnought and warsuns.

And last but maybe the main reason why I don't like it :

The racial power of the Sardak'Norr is MUCH more efficient with fighters and destroyers and much lest with bigger ships... so going for Dreadnought is rarely the best path for them (except again in some cicunstances).


Terefore I think that exotrireme is very cirumstancial... can be huge in some situations 8if neighbours are Muat or Jol'nar) but most of the time that will not be the best path to go to.
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Trent Lanthier
Canada
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Yeah we found it really nasty too ... when he got them we also had a law that allowed only 4 fleet total and it was brutal. The humans would go in and he'd soak a hit and the sac the dreadnaught to take out a racial ship + a carrier killing capacity by 20 ... it was just nasty.

Normally you'd want to bring in a ton of fighters to deal with it but he was completely killing your ability to carry them.
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Badoux Jerome
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I admit with such law the combo becomes quite nasty!
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Josh Casey
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Many of the races will appear overpowered if you play the game exactly the way they want you to. In this case, it sounds like you gave them the breathing room to tech up fairly deep and engaged them in their strongest match up(large ships vs large ships). Can't tell from your post if this player was actually scoring points vs just roaming around with a doom fleet. If you need to fight such a players fleet, you'd probably be better off with cruiser 2 and/or fighter 2 based fleet as opposed to dreads/warsun/capital ships.
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Andre Oliveira
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You could have Fighter II to avoid some carrier loses.
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Pettet Nordqvist
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Agone07 wrote:
In fact I don't even find it so good.

Sacrificing an advanced dreadnought to kill another ship it i worth vs War Suns and other Dreadnoughts and that's it...

And last but maybe the main reason why I don't like it :

The racial power of the Sardak'Norr is MUCH more efficient with fighters and destroyers and much lest with bigger ships... so going for Dreadnought is rarely the best path for them (except again in some cicunstances).


Terefore I think that exotrireme is very cirumstancial... can be huge in some situations 8if neighbours are Muat or Jol'nar) but most of the time that will not be the best path to go to.


First of, it kills two ships so you actually break even with cruisers. And go way way ahead against dreads.

And to the second point, I agree that fighter swarms are the best by far for Sardakk But you gotta go two blue tech to get carrier II to make that work, which means you are one yellow from the upgraded dreads anyway. And dreads are what you want behind the fighter screens anyway! Also blue tech gets you gravity drive, which lets your flagship keep up to make your fighters even better.
 
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Paul Couch
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I lost the Barony flag, a warsun, and two other dreadnoughts in my run in with them. But I'd already got my vps from mecatol, so I went on to win the game ( with 3 planets left).
They are the last word in heavy space battle tech, but that's not game winning.
 
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Badoux Jerome
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why do you go with WS and flagship against Exotrireme? it is not "overpowered" you did just play dumb.
 
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Simon Kamber
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Agone07 wrote:
why do you go with WS and flagship against Exotrireme? it is not "overpowered" you did just play dumb.


He won the game, so it can't have been THAT dumb.
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Badoux Jerome
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the problem you break even in gold value with 2 cruisers you even get ahead in prod value, however the cruisers are statistically more efficient in combat then dreadnoughts... and you have to have advanced dreadnought (so invest tech) to break even with normal cruisers... that doesn't break even.

Yes if you build advanced carrers you are close from dread (especially that you are likely to have sarween tools) however getting one tech more is an investment and then you even have to build the dreadnoughts... better to build swarms the dreadnoughts. and if the exotrireme becomes necessary because of how the game evolves... then go for it... but it is not because you are close from the tech you need to build it especially if it asks you to invest even more to build dreadnoughts.

Exotrireme is a good situational tech when Fighter swarms are not an option (example : too many advanced destroyers, ..) or when it is clearly usefull (next to players with warsuns and dreadnoughts!)
 
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Marcus Aurelius
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Sirusx715 wrote:
Many of the races will appear overpowered if you play the game exactly the way they want you to. In this case, it sounds like you gave them the breathing room to tech up fairly deep and engaged them in their strongest match up(large ships vs large ships). Can't tell from your post if this player was actually scoring points vs just roaming around with a doom fleet. If you need to fight such a players fleet, you'd probably be better off with cruiser 2 and/or fighter 2 based fleet as opposed to dreads/warsun/capital ships.


This isn't about my engagement and what I did or did not let them do. Every game of TI is dependent on so much more than just the starting races and their upgrades/abilities. The flow of objectives, the way the universe turns out, your neighbors etc. I find the "don't let them do it" argument just incredibly weak here. If I commit too much of my strategy around not giving breathing room to 1/5 of my enemies rather than focusing around scoring objectives and developing my options to score points in the future, I will not likely be the winner. Sometimes those will align, but it's just not a valid answer under the vast majority of circumstances you find yourself in when playing. Besides, I'm here to discuss other player's experiences, and theorize on the grand scheme of things. That means, I'm proposing that Exotrireme II is too powerful in a way which affects most of the games they would be in too much in their favor, and in an not very fun way, whether directly (by destroying), or indirectly (by deterring).

It's not like teching up to Dreadnought II is difficult and something i have to "let them" roam around in order for them to be able to do. N'orr could go for the fighters to get more out of their +1 (which is only another option for them), sure, but I find producing many fighters is difficult for most factions as you are far more limited in terms of how much and how often you can produce rather than just resources. The fact that the dreads are a lot of stats wrapped in 1 plastic piece for the cost of 4 makes them very efficient. Most other races want to build them to be strong when warring against other factions. We won't even talk about War Suns or Flagships, those are off the table. You are literally left with one fleet option which does not beat N'orr, it just doesn't automatically lose like the big ships. And good luck rebuilding a fleet of 20 fighters. I'm saying there is no counterplay here. I'm not sure how a "Cruiser 2" fleet that you suggest looks like. In my experience, Cruisers are maneuvering tools to steal and nab a far reaching system for an objective or to blockade and such, never really a fleet component.
 
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Brian Petersen
United States
Texas
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IMHO, Exotrireme II is more powerful defensively than offensively. You can't be invaded if the opponent's ships with capacity are killed.

As others have pointed out, it is at the end of a combat round after hits have been applied & retreats have happened (67.8), so if the Norr's Dreadnaught(s) die or either player declares a retreat, the ability cannot be used.

Furthermore, it is not a required ability. The lifetime hits of a Norr DN II are greater than 2.

Also, the N'orr may be able to hit the hardest, but it might not be where it hurts the most. Creuss can't hit as hard, but they can hit any system with the right techs & wormhole placement (Have all blue techs, racial techs, and flagship. Flagship starting in a Gravity Rift with a wormhole token has 3 movement through a, b, & d wormholes, isn't stopped by enemy ships, and ships from either home system only need 1 movement to get there. And for good measure, let's have them use Fleet Logistics and Warfare to have them make their game winning move by unlocking down their HS, and redistributing all but 1 CC to Fleet Supply.)
 
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Josh Casey
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It's a 3 prereq tech for a race that starts with literally 0 techs and an unimpressive home system in a game that goes 7 rounds. If they got that tech out, built up a fleet of dreadnaughts, and kept up in objectives well enough to have the technology have a meaningful impact on the game, kudos to them. They must have done a heck of a lot more that game in order to be successful and deserved to do well.
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Marcus Aurelius
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And that is difficult ? Building Dreadnoughts is the easiest fleet to make. 3 prerequisites of technologies you'd want anyway if zone control was of any concern. And with TI4 objectives it quite often is.
 
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Will
Canada
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Dulkal wrote:
Agone07 wrote:
why do you go with WS and flagship against Exotrireme? it is not "overpowered" you did just play dumb.


He won the game, so it can't have been THAT dumb.


So I guess Exotrireme isn't that "broken", then.
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Paul Couch
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Dulkal wrote:
Agone07 wrote:
why do you go with WS and flagship against Exotrireme? it is not "overpowered" you did just play dumb.


He won the game, so it can't have been THAT dumb.

Thanks.
My fleet was at Mecatol, and was attacked. I didn't choose to fight, but when they came, they wiped me out. I'd had the VP, so it didn't matter. But i was shocked about how what i thought of as a large, powerful, balanced and teched Barony fleet went down with no effect - the N'orr just went over it.
 
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Lee Silver
United States
New York
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Is it overpowered? Probably. There are ways to mitigate it but the OP is right Dreadnoughts are the best units in the game and many races can’t really adjust their fleets to fight the Extrioreme (Embers, Barony, L1Z1X, etc). However, objectives not space combat are the drivers of this game and in this department they really suffer. About 1/3rd of the objectives are tech based which the Norr will struggle mightily to accomplish. Another third or so are about spending resources which can be a struggle if you are trying to turbo out Dreadnought 2. It’s an incredibly powerful tool that directly counters certain races but unless the objectives really flip their way it isn’t really game breaking as it is balanced by their tech disadvantage. However, in a 14 point game I could see it being a more serious problem.
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