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Subject: Rising Sun vs Diplomacy rss

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Casey Smith
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My favorite board game is Diplomacy. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/483/diplomacy

I think I just really like how most of the game is based off of making deals and how everyone moves at the same time. It really creates some tense moments, but sometimes it also creates some of the worst feelings which I think makes it a hard game for people to replay. Also coming from playing Risk and 'Axis and Allies', I really liked how Diplomacy didnt use dice. It really feels like when I made good plays it was based more on cunning than luck(even though on the Diplomacy box it says there is no luck, I do think there is some, its just not based off of dice).

I can't remember exactly how I have heard of Rising Sun, but when I heard that someone was trying to make a newer game loosely based off of Diplomacy, sign me up. Ive been watching a ton of the lets play videos and have been reading the rule book obsessively. Really hoping that my gaming group will give this game a try. (they will, but I hope its a new regular game besides more clank and scythe)

A few things that I think Rising Sun does correctly that I think helps it compared to Diplomacy, is Alliances can't officially be bigger than 2 people. I supposed technically more people could work together, but you wont get mandate bonuses, and during the war phase you will still have to fight non alliance members. One thing that can be terrible in Diplomacy is to be working in an alliance for a few game years thinking everything is going great, only for the alliance to think you are the weakest link and betray you. I get the feeling betrayal can still hurt, but it wont hurt as bad in Rising Sun.

Why wont betrayal wont hurt as much? You can still stand your ground alone. I really like that alliances cant combine their power in wars, so this can really give non alliance clans a chance when fighting for territory. Also, to help alliances run swimmingly, I feel like its encouraged for alliance members to avoid being in the same territories during the combat phase.

Another thing that I really like in Rising Sun is how it has money. In Diplomacy, you can only really offer combat support. This can make it almost impossible to influence someone that isn't directly next to you(Although I have to be honest, I have played some fantastic Diplomacy players online, they are quite inventive in the deals they can create with such few resources). Being able to bribe people will be a welcome mechanic to play with.

One last thing that I think really helps out Rising Sun is the playtime shouldn't take 6 hours.

The forums have been kind of slow, so I thought I would type something up to start some discussion. Would like to hear what other people are thinking.
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Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
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If you want a modern board game based on Diplomacy, people generally refer to A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition) as the closest cousin.
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Niall Smyth
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One of the advantages over Diplomacy, for me, is that betrayal is worked into the game, and has a penalty. I've never liked how much Diplomacy focuses on treachery. It's an enjoyable part of games, but it's more interesting when it's rare, not when every alliance is really about working out who will betray the other first.
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Mr. Octavius
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One of the advantages Rising Sun has over a game like Risk is that while it has some randomness, it's all input randomness or the actions of other players.
The actions you have available on your turn will be random (2 or 3 out of 5) but once you've chosen an action you know what the outcome is. (There's no dice roll to see who wins the harvest in a territory.) However, there's no guarantee that other players will act the way you expect. If I choose Marshall so I can take control of a shrine another player may unexpectedly put all their recruits there.
War is almost perfect information, you know how much force and money each player has, but again you don't know how players are going to bid. If you lose a war you thought you would win it's not because some random dice said so, it's because another player did something unexpected.

I also like the open bribing with coins. It opens up the options a lot with how players can negotiate and influence the game.
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Michael R

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Maebon wrote:

The actions you have available on your turn will be random (2 or 3 out of 5) but once you've chosen an action you know what the outcome is.


If you play Lotus, even that part won't be random because you'll always have all 5 options available.
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Joshua Simone [The Quasi Geek Dad]
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SwissQueso wrote:

The forums have been kind of slow, so I thought I would type something up to start some discussion. Would like to hear what other people are thinking.


Oh the forums should be exploding soon. The first of the shipping containers has arrived in port. So once all the customs business is done CMON should be shipping out sooner than later! Woo hoo!
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Bill Cook
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Cosmic Encounter has the "convince the other players to let you win" aspect of Diplomacy.
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Casey Smith
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Cmid21 wrote:

Don't forget that the losing clan gets the money from the winner.


I was thinking about this, and was thinking this would be a great way to play kingmaker in Rising Sun. Since you cant actually trade during the war phase, you could put all your money down in a fight, so someone could use that money in their next fight.
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Casey Smith
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Im not against it, and am sure the designers considered it. Just think it's kind of dirty, although I supposed since coins get reset at the start of a new season, you might as well use them all since you cant take them with you.

It's just something you have to accept and maybe assume it will happen.
 
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Jon Snow
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If Diplomacy is your thing, you might enjoy Machiavelli. Back in the day we played it to death. It is the same system, but with many different layers on top, including numerous scenarios for different numbers of players. The bgg page is here:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/286/machiavelli

 
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Mr. Octavius
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SwissQueso wrote:
Cmid21 wrote:

Don't forget that the losing clan gets the money from the winner.


I was thinking about this, and was thinking this would be a great way to play kingmaker in Rising Sun. Since you cant actually trade during the war phase, you could put all your money down in a fight, so someone could use that money in their next fight.


Which gives all that money to the person they beat I that fight, so they can have an easier time in their next fight. Kingmaking will be harder than you think.
 
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Casey Smith
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Considering you can see the order of the battles before the war phase, I dont think it would be crazy to figure out ways to funnel money.

The only thing that I could see monkey wrenching this is the Fox clans ability to be able to throw in a bushi into any fight they want. That basically lets them steal half the money from fights.

Although to play devils advocate, if someone is worried that you will do such a thing, I guess they can throw in a single unit to a province to prevent this and make you split the money by either moving a unit, or using a betray mandate. I guess its just up to how cunning your opponents are.

edit, sorry if this isn't picking a side, I guess I could see it both ways now.
 
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Christopher Baughman

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In diplomacy if you had the wrong country surrounded by the wrong people you were pretty much screwed. I hated that feeling of gamely putting in orders knowing that I was just there for the chips at that point.

This game seems to provide all players the ability to stay relevant through the game and, at the least, be able to impact the result.
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Thilo M.
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Couldn't you just form an alliance with someone if you wanted to be king making?
 
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Thomas Aikens
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“Competition on anything is good...” -Eddy Cue
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One of the things I love about this game (not having played it) is how well thought out and streamlined it feels; there is a tie breaker for everything, you can't have a huge army and expect to win a ton of provinces if you have little income, even not allying will benefit you more than the other two that are allied, etc. Whenever someone else brings something up about this game, I think "That's my new favorite thing!" I have really high hopes for this game and I really hope it doesn't disappoint...
 
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Mr. Octavius
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GrandKhan44 wrote:
Couldn't you just form an alliance with someone if you wanted to be king making?


An alliance doesn't combine forces and can only be between 2 people. If I have more force in a province than player A, you being in an alliance with player A doesn't help them at all. If you bring in more force than player A now you are going to win the province instead of me. If you bring in less force than player A then I still have the most force and I am still winning the province.
You could move in some force and bid on seppuku / capture / poets to deny them to me, letting player A spend all his coin on Ronin, but then the coin you spent is lost and if I don't bid high but player A does now I have more coin to spend in my next battle.

If a player in an alliance wins a territory, does anyone know if they include their ally among the players they split up their coins to?
 
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Oden Dee
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Pretty sure you include the ally. You divvy up to the losers.
 
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Casey Smith
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Yeah the winner splits evenly and any remainder coins go to the winners choice. Which should be their ally, but its only one coin.
 
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Lou Lessing
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Rising Sun's designers say it's loosely inspired by Diplomacy, and it does loosely resemble it. It's a guys-on-a-map game with diceless combat and an emphasis on making deals with other players, and Diplomacy is all of those things.

None of the more specific mechanics that make Diplomacy Diplomacy are reproduced, however. Rising Sun has no simultaneous order selection. Rising Sun has a maximum player count of 5 and is said to be best at 4, which will not produce nearly as complicated diplomatic situations as Diplomacy's 7. Rising Sun's alliances are almost always between exactly 2 players, and are represented very mechanically. Diplomacy's alliances are purely an out-of-game structure with no direct in-game representation, and as such are very flexible -- they often contain three or four players. (Nothing stops you creating this kind of alliance in Rising Sun, but lower player count + mechanics that reinforce alliances of exactly 2 players discourages it.) Diplomacy has strictly-enforced area control, Rising Sun lets players share regions.

There are more fundamental differences also. Underneath all the player politics, the skeleton of Diplomacy is an abstract strategy game. It's a game where you move around a node graph and take over nodes by controlling the majority of their connections and win by controlling a certain percentage of the graph. Underneath all the player politics, the skeleton of Rising Sun is a euro with a focus on auctions and drafting. I'm not sure exactly how it'll play, but you collect coins and commit them to combat options, you collect units and commit them to regions, you collect shinto and commit them to shrines, you draft actions and season upgrades, you win with victory points. It's a euro.

I really like diplomacy and I hope Rising Sun will be interesting in it's own right, but I don't think the two are more than superficially similar.
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Jonathan Challis
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If it's any help, I hate Diplomacy, but I went all in for Rising Sun, and I'm certain I'll enjoy it.

The resemblance is very weak, no more than most dudes-on-a-map games in fact.

I'd agree that Game of Thrones is the best 'updated' Diplomacy, and do actually enjoy that.
 
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