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Subject: unbalanced market action? thoughts after first play rss

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Nick Bornschein
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Hi,

we had our first 2 player game yesterday and I like the mechanism with the dice very much. Earlier in the game I had the chance to buy some nice province tiles. So I used the market action whih generated 9 money each time, which felt some kind of unbalanced game strategy only to buy good tiles and use the market.
What's your impression about that?

-Nick
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Diego Inserauto & Maria Angela Rastetter
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The key is create a good engine for money and prestige points.
Yes, you can get 9 coins or even more in each turn after a while, but the Prestige track is exactely (or almost) the half of the money track so if you gain 4 prestige points is equal to gain eight coins.

Get money is easier than get prestige but the prestige track has bonuses/rewards that are more interesting than the ones in the money track.
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Tahsin Shamma
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Also the basic game is not meant to be the default way to play. The "variants" described in the back are the more common ways to play once you've learned the game.
 
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Pedro Pereira
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I would hold back on calling any game unbalanced after playing it only once. If you discover a strategy that seems strong, stick to it until your opponent breaks it. That forces you to become more flexible.

To me this game is much more about opportunities than engines. But that's my own style of playing. I have never tried to focus only on market or only on fame. I tend to push money in early game to unlock some bonuses (particularly the extra worker) and in mid-game (round 2 or 3 latest) I shift to fame and push that one hard.

To sum it up: play the game often if you like it before you make up your mind about it being broken or unbalanced. Seems to be trend these days for people to play a game once and declaring it poorly designed.
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Darrell Goodridge
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Also keep in mind, that in a 2p game, there is only one mixed market space. Your opponent could easily mess with you by having only one market in his estate and taking the space to block you. Meanwhile there are many more quarry spots to gain fame. The money track goes to 120, so even getting 9 money a pop, you'd still have to do it 14 times, if you didn't spend anything or gain anything else. Considering most games are considerably shorter than 14 rounds, it's hardly overpowered.
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Steve Rowlands
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I just finished a game I thought I was walking away with having ran up the money track. I did win but barely in the end. What I noticed was the market spots were harder thought over later in the game and I began to slow. I also didn't get my second worker on the fame track and this almost cost me the game as others began to catch up. The person who almost caught me got a lot of action out of the river at the end as he got a few triggers in one turn from bonus actions. It all felt balanced but I have hardly played the game. The only thing I can say for sure is I had a blast and can't wait to play again.
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Christopher Corrigan
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I am certain you are a smart lad, undoubtedly far more perceptive, analytical, intuitive and whatnot than me with my rather dim light. But please experience a game a bit before you draw any conclusions whatsoever. I often revise my shallow opinion of a title after a variety of contexts, circumspection and experiences.
 
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Fabrice Dubois
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Pedrator wrote:
To sum it up: play the game often if you like it before you make up your mind about it being broken or unbalanced. Seems to be trend these days for people to play a game once and declaring it poorly designed.

+1

It reminds me Great Western Trail : after 1 play, guys said that the cowboy strategy was overpowered....It is certainely the easiest way to go but not the automatic way to the win (disclaimer : i have played GWT 22 times).
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Przemyslaw Kozlowski
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I just played my first game of Rajas of the Gangaes and this is indeed a very strong play that got the winner a lot of money. However, we also noticed that the winner got really lucky with the fame buildings while the runner up got really unlucky in that regard. Without that luck factor, the game would have lasted 1-3 more rounds and the runner up would have been able to score some major bonuses.

It's definitely a tactic you have to watch out for since it puts a clock on the game.
 
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Francesco Grimaldi
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In our last game my friend had a market producing 14 money. It was almost impossible to prevent him from winning the game by a huge margin.
Ok he was smart and in the end he deserved the first place but.....

What i found bad was that i coulnd't have any possibility to prevent him from assembling that big market!

What do you think about that?
 
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Thomas Leitner
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inzivro wrote:
In our last game my friend had a market producing 14 money. It was almost impossible to prevent him from winning the game by a huge margin.
Ok he was smart and in the end he deserved the first place but.....

What i found bad was that i coulnd't have any possibility to prevent him from assembling that big market!

What do you think about that?


It sounds like you might not have been playing that space correctly. Each time it's used it requires a die of equal or greater value to the number of markets being activated.
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Kevin Ryan
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you could also take the market space he was using to block him from getting his 14 money? At least that is possible in the base, 2-player game.
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Nick Bornschein
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MDJD wrote:
inzivro wrote:
In our last game my friend had a market producing 14 money. It was almost impossible to prevent him from winning the game by a huge margin.
Ok he was smart and in the end he deserved the first place but.....

What i found bad was that i coulnd't have any possibility to prevent him from assembling that big market!

What do you think about that?


It sounds like you might not have been playing that space correctly. Each time it's used it requires a die of equal or greater value to the number of markets being activated.


I also haven't read that rule! Thank you! So my win in our first play wasn't correct. Damn.
 
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Sam Phillips Beckerman
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Kopernikus wrote:
MDJD wrote:
inzivro wrote:
In our last game my friend had a market producing 14 money. It was almost impossible to prevent him from winning the game by a huge margin.
Ok he was smart and in the end he deserved the first place but.....

What i found bad was that i coulnd't have any possibility to prevent him from assembling that big market!

What do you think about that?


It sounds like you might not have been playing that space correctly. Each time it's used it requires a die of equal or greater value to the number of markets being activated.


I also haven't read that rule! Thank you! So my win in our first play wasn't correct. Damn.


Well, I know that rule and have won both of the games that I used this strategy on. One was 2player. I got fame up to the spot where I earned my additional worker and then continued to focus on the markets. I could get $12 using a 4+ die and only $8 using no die.
 
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David Stahle
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Both the market strategy and the building fame strategy offers about the same yield in points per action spent when you include the investment in setup (counting 1 die as about equal to 1 worker action).

The market strategy, once setup, is easier to use as it does not require a specific die value or color but is at the same time easier for opponents to disrupt.
 
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Pierre-Marc Duguay
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I won the 5 matches of Rajas that I played for now, and I have to say that the diversified market that scores 9 money without any die has been my key to victory each game. There might be an other strategy, but this one is fairly easy to setup and has a very good win ratio. I'll try some other strategies in my next games!
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Zoe M
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Quote:
To sum it up: play the game often if you like it before you make up your mind about it being broken or unbalanced.


The only problem with this is if one specific element is having a significant negative impact on your enjoyment of the game, like that market space does for us. The idea that only people who play a game a lot are allowed to criticize it basically means that no game can be criticized, because the people who have a problem with it don't play enough for their opinions to count.
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Nick Bornschein
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Unfortunately, after some plays, I still underline my initial post here. The game is great but when somebody uses the market action every round getting a lot of money, it gets boring. We did not find any alternative for that.
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Vegan Gamer
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We just had our first play-through and we had the same thoughts about the market actions. It felt kind of dull getting 9 points each time for a simple, cost-free action, like I was being repeatedly and disproportionately rewarded.

But, that said, I have yet to try the advanced variant and have played only once as I say, so this is just an initial impression. I'm far from sure that my concerns are well-founded at this stage
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Sam Phillips Beckerman
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I won again this weekend with $11 I could get on both the unequal and equal market space. it was a runaway. Not sure what how to mitigate that.

OOPS: edit: $11 on equal, $9 on unequal
 
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Mark Levine
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Sam Houston wrote:
I won again this weekend with $11 I could get on both the unequal and equal market space. it was a runaway. Not sure what how to mitigate that.


How were you getting $11 on the unequal market space?

My problem with that unequal spot is that opposed to the others, it doesn't require a die, and it only takes two tiles to make it worth $6+. Obviously, it's not the only thing you do, but it's so easy to set up it seems almost obligatory.

Building up an equal market requires a bit more effort (at least 3-4 tiles, easier to block by grabbing a tile), and it's going to cost you a (3+) die each time, so it seems fair enough.

I think next time we play, we're going to try having the unequal spot cost a die, and see how that goes.
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Sam Phillips Beckerman
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KoolKow wrote:
Sam Houston wrote:
I won again this weekend with $11 I could get on both the unequal and equal market space. it was a runaway. Not sure what how to mitigate that.


How were you getting $11 on the unequal market space?


fixed that
 
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Steve Rowlands
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KoolKow wrote:
Sam Houston wrote:
I won again this weekend with $11 I could get on both the unequal and equal market space. it was a runaway. Not sure what how to mitigate that.


How were you getting $11 on the unequal market space?

My problem with that unequal spot is that opposed to the others, it doesn't require a die, and it only takes two tiles to make it worth $6+. Obviously, it's not the only thing you do, but it's so easy to set up it seems almost obligatory.

Building up an equal market requires a bit more effort (at least 3-4 tiles, easier to block by grabbing a tile), and it's going to cost you a (3+) die each time, so it seems fair enough.

I think next time we play, we're going to try having the unequal spot cost a die, and see how that goes.


But then it is equally good for everyone. So people need to fight for first place and that costs a die. I agree it is a good thing to do but I don't see the problem. If everyone does that then it still comes to who does everything else better. I agree that playing new players is a huge advantage if they don't realise this. However, I am no expert and may not be right. Besides right or not if that isbhow you feel then I understand it would suck your enjoyment out of the game and feel frustrating. It would be good to hear from the designers or someone who has played the game LOTS.
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Mark Levine
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For the record, we are enjoying our two player games more with the rule that you must also spend a die to go to the unequal market spot.
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Joel Oakley
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KoolKow wrote:
For the record, we are enjoying our two player games more with the rule that you must also spend a die to go to the unequal market spot.


I'm curious how you treated this space with your modification. I was thinking of treating it like the river movement die rules. Using a 1, 2, or 3 value die allows you activate up to 1, 2, or 3 different types of markets (4+ dice are unusable there). This would obviously increase slightly the importance of low die rolls, which is a good thing in my opinion since high rolls are better for building.
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