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Subject: Collective Toil: Viable in 1.5? rss

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George Aristides
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Hi all

I have been thinking about the Collective Toil vs Accept Darkness principles.
Traditionally, Accept Darkness was the default choice, as the Bone Witch was to be avoided at all costs.

Now in 1.5 the Bone Witch is nowhere as crippling so there is more of a reason to pick Collective Toil. I kinda like the synergy between Protect the Young, Collective Toil and Graves (the "good guy" principles). I would also like to go "good guy" thematically, to spite the Hand who seems to want our settlements to go Survival of the Fittest/Accept the Darkness so he can have hardier survivors turning into King's Men.

.. But I am a bit concerned about dying to Brain Trauma rolls if I don't go Accept Darkness.

I am a bit curious as to what people went with in their 1.5 campaigns, and their experiences. How do you deal with enemies that tend to deal a lot of brain damage? (e.g. Butcher/Antelope/Hand). Do you go out of your way to get gear that boosts insanity?

 
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Dennis Werfl
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I like "Accept Darkness". Although I gotta say that "Collective Toil" would have turned out to be better for my campaign, cause you can do more in your settlement phase. I tend not to have a problem with braintraumata. I am playing with the "Slenderman", and have two "Orators of Death", both antelope and leather set do give some insanity. And I use one "Twilight Thong" EDIT: (promo card)
 
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Julien
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Our first post prologue white lion fight ended up with 3 dead because of 3 "1-roll-result". We'll accept the Darkness forever ^^
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Matt
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I went this route, and ended up reaching The Watcher on my first go around for my solo game, playing totally blind, with a final death count just shy of 50.

So, you get a LOT of cannon fodder survivors, lol.
 
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Jon Strike
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I've gone collective toil, and as above, the extra endeavour is a real bonus, along with family(I think-tank one you get innovations for every 10 survivors) etc. Allows you to nerf the innovations especially scrap smelting and scrap searching.

Lantern year 21 on first play 😁.

Axiem, I'm glad you're at the watcher too...I was thinking I was the only one sailing through the game. Breeding and canon fodder indeed!.
 
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Fen Batten
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Collective Toil is good if you churn through a lot of survivors and don't care about the individuals.

Accept Darkness is better for campaigns where you are looking to build powerful, ageless, long lived survivors.

In PotStars Accept Darkness is always the optimal choice, that campaign lives and dies on individuals.
 
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Gerrit G.
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We've just chosen Collective Toil in our first campaign. (At year 13.) It was clearly favored by 3 out of 4 players. I myself was rather split, but got outvoted.

From my limited experience with the game (we still have no idea what the Bone Witch does), I would say that Collective Toil works better with Protect the Young and Accept Darkness works better with Survival of the Fittest.
 
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Emmit Svenson
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Collective Toil is excellent for getting more Bone Witch visits, which is crucial for getting low accuracy survivors to turn into high speed/low accuracy survivors, who are the key to certain strategies.
 
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Chris Lang
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Edit: Re-read these scribbles and I'm a bit all over the place. Sorry for the randomness.

Collective toil is optimally used at a high population, thus protect the young. The idea is to maximize your settlement's pop as quickly as you can and sustain / keep growing.

I tried toil for giggles... My settlement at year 15 has 35 people. It gets a min of 8 endeavors when returning home (with cooking), plus a ton of tinkerers (from augury rolls IIRC). The average take-home is 10 endeavors. Any time endeavors aren't being used productively for the year (i.e. not scrap scavenging when we have 3 iron in the bank), we roll for augury/intimacy. We have been unlucky not to get nightmare training for 5+ years now, but once we do, we will start spamming our endeavors there.

Survivors can do whatever they want in the settlement phase. Scrap scavenge, smelt, augury, leather, events, training, ritual - And still have endeavors to spare. You never have to think 'Should I do xxxx this year or wait until next year'? Do all the things. Then do them again. Easy game. Easy mode.

Toil IMO is the suboptimal strategy, but we have had a ton of fun playing it. We have segregated the settlement by family/proficiency... the Spearmans, Bowmans, Axemans, Macemans (clubs), Blockmans (shields), the Fisters and the Toothers. Some of the families get along fine. Others not so much. The Fisters and the Toothers are like the (sic) Capulets and Montagues. Both F&T families despise the other. They are both competing to get the first F&T master. Also... We sent Romeo Fister to fight along side Juliet Toother. They became synchronized partners and died trying to murder the Hand (essentially suicide). It was a gloriously hilarious moment and one of the very best gaming sessions I have ever been a part of.

I feel like toil creates a ton of variability in the settlement. So much so, that we created a game within our game. But I don't think it helps you win as much as adding +2 to brain trauma rolls does (just from first impressions).

Toil helps you with your settlement phase.
Darkness keeps your people alive longer.
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So far, we have always chosen Accept the Darkness as it makes Brain Trauma much less deadly.

With Accept the Darkness, a roll of lantern 10 can kill you (if you already have 3 disorders).

The +2 does not appear to be optional, so Accept the Darkness makes rolling a lantern 10 on the Brain Trauma table less fun.
 
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Sven Wasberg
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fenpaints wrote:
Collective Toil is good if you churn through a lot of survivors and don't care about the individuals.

Accept Darkness is better for campaigns where you are looking to build powerful, ageless, long lived survivors.

In PotStars Accept Darkness is always the optimal choice, that campaign lives and dies on individuals.


I can´t completely agree with you.
If you have more endeavors, you have also more ways to make your survivors stronger.
For example I used many of those endeavors to get survival and I used the survival for nightmare training.
I think the bad guy principles are more about a fast boost during the early game, while the good guy principles have good synergies and tend to be very strong during the mid- and lategame.
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Comboteur "Crazed 'Beastface' Survivor" Fou
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I took Collective Toil.
It sucks.
And I always forget to apply its effects because there is no reminder during hunts and showdowns.

Also, since my guys die so fast, or get to not use their fighting arts, fighting arts are pretty much inexistant to me :-S

Also, of course I rolled a 10 on Bone Witch and lost the King's Man post.

Because I love fetching stuff and writing stuff, only to lose it on the next roll.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Elizablumi wrote:

If you have more endeavors, you have also more ways to make your survivors stronger.
For example I used many of those endeavors to get survival and I used the survival for nightmare training.
I think the bad guy principles are more about a fast boost during the early game, while the good guy principles have good synergies and tend to be very strong during the mid- and lategame.


I think that you are underestimating Accept Darkness and its synergies.
The first, extremely important thing it does is to make your "20% chance of dying from brain trauma" a "10% chance of dying only under certain conditions from brain trauma", and that is invaluable, especially with certain expansions and events which tend to set your insanity to 0 extremely often.

It also turns Murder into an acceptable event, where you trade the life of one survivor with an undisclosed number of disorders and fighting arts cherry picked to fit your strategy, which is a thing that is crucial to get True Blade with the FK, for example.

And now, just consider the SotF reroll, and its stat bonus. With a SotF reroll, a survivor is quantifiably more sturdy. You get Harvester with all noisy gear, or Feet with a fully insane party? No prob, just reroll that hunt event roll! You die on brain trauma? Reroll!

SotF/Accept Darkness is the way to go to keep your survivors around longer, and that is not a "short term boost", is a "make them invincible". In a game of dice rolling, the chance of rerolling indefinitely is all-powerful.

Also, +1 Endeavors every 6 people is not remotely as good as +1 permanent evasion and a free reroll.

Now, Collective Toil kinda sucks, but in a good way. You can make use of it. Of course, SotF/Collective Toil indicates bad life choices (if you really really want the Bone Witch, go Romantic or whatever). It is just that there is no "moral theme" on choices, there are just synergies to be collected. The only real short term boost this game has is Cannibalize, and it is comparably so bad that Adam had to add a "Survival Limit +1" just to make it more palatable.

Astonishingly, Cannibalize syngergizes better with PtY than with SotF, so it is not actually a good guy/bad guy theme.

That said, you can really work with what you have now. Updated Romantic still falls behind a bit, but at least is more useful than before.

 
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t3clis wrote:

And now, just consider the SotF reroll, and its stat bonus. With a SotF reroll, a survivor is quantifiably more sturdy. You get Harvester with all noisy gear, or Feet with a fully insane party? No prob, just reroll that hunt event roll! You die on brain trauma? Reroll!



Just a small detail, but harvester can't be rerolled
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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Yup, you are right
Not encountered in 1.5 yet, so I glossed over that part
 
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Andreas
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emmit svenson wrote:
Collective Darkness is excellent for getting more Bone Witch visits, which is crucial for getting low accuracy survivors to turn into high speed/low accuracy survivors, who are the key to certain strategies.


Sorry for the off-topic question, but what strategy are high speed/low accuracy survivors good for?
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Pietro Pomella
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antro wrote:
emmit svenson wrote:
Collective Darkness is excellent for getting more Bone Witch visits, which is crucial for getting low accuracy survivors to turn into high speed/low accuracy survivors, who are the key to certain strategies.


Sorry for the off-topic question, but what strategy are high speed/low accuracy survivors good for?



One fight we did build up some high speed low accuracy survivors for was the
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Gold Smoke Knight
. The idea was to use them with counterweight axes to get around the very high toughness of the monster, it worked well enough.
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Alessio Massuoli
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To give it a context, high speed/low accuracy aims at scoring only perfect hits (on a 10, or on 9-10 with Timeless Eye) to trigger effects on weapons which have desirable perfect hit effects. Core game, a counterweighted axe scores automatic wound without drawing HL on a perfect hit. Having high speed and an accuracy of 10+ ensures that you only do auto-wounds, thus avoiding any kind of reactions.

Assuming you manage to get -4 accuracy from Bone Witch, a counterweighted axe and have Timeless Eye and a +3 speed, you roll 5 dice, each with a 20% chance of wounding, being sure to never draw HLs.

The downside to this is that you are entirely trusting dice to wound (you always trust dice, but in this case you are entirely at dice mercy), a strategy that never pays off in the long run with this kind of luck mitigation games. You can go two entire rounds without wounding, for example (or, if you roll like my brother-in-law at Shadespire, you can never wound in an entire game ).

It is an especially good strategy against GSK because how nasty some reactions are, and because how surging works in some HLs.
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_css_ wrote:
t3clis wrote:

And now, just consider the SotF reroll, and its stat bonus. With a SotF reroll, a survivor is quantifiably more sturdy. You get Harvester with all noisy gear, or Feet with a fully insane party? No prob, just reroll that hunt event roll! You die on brain trauma? Reroll!



Just a small detail, but harvester can't be rerolled


You can't re-roll hunt events? It's a die result, right?
 
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Pietro Pomella
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Taboobat wrote:


You can't re-roll hunt events? It's a die result, right?


Normally you can, but according to the 1.5 hunt table Harvester cannot be rerolled or avoided in any way.
 
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Drew Olds
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The "Bad Guy" principles are all about single powerful survivors. Individual survivors will live much longer, but there won't be many replacements when they die.

The "Good Guy" principles are all about the survival and power level of the settlement. You'll have lots of people in your settlement, but it is harder to keep specific ones alive.
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Gerrit G.
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This is more like a rules question, but it directly affects Collective Toil's viability: When determining how many extra endeavors you get, do you round mathmatically or do you only get +1 endeavor for 10 full survivors each?

Since the card doesn't mention rounding, I would say the latter is true. I am not entirely sure though.
 
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Sven Wasberg
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Quote:
I think that you are underestimating Accept Darkness and its synergies.
The first, extremely important thing it does is to make your "20% chance of dying from brain trauma" a "10% chance of dying only under certain conditions from brain trauma", and that is invaluable, especially with certain expansions and events which tend to set your insanity to 0 extremely often.


I can clearly see the benefits of Accept Drkness, but Collective Toil has a lot of ways to compensate that.
There are some ways to use your endeavors to raise your insanity.
That sid´I didn´t play with all expansions and don´t know how much some expansions could screw with this plan.

Quote:
And now, just consider the SotF reroll, and its stat bonus. With a SotF reroll, a survivor is quantifiably more sturdy. You get Harvester with all noisy gear, or Feet with a fully insane party? No prob, just reroll that hunt event roll! You die on brain trauma? Reroll!


You can easily get more thanenough rerolls for your fights with Scholar of Death.
The only times you are really vulnerable are events and the hunt phase.
Sadly the "good guy principles" offer no ways to compensate here.

Quote:
Also, +1 Endeavors every 6 people is not remotely as good as +1 permanent evasion and a free reroll.


With graves and certain innovations new survivors will be born with 3 understanding.
This means you also have a lot of tinkerers.
I usually get between 10 and 13 endeavors each yer and could easily raise the number.
This gives you more than enough chances to get a stat bonus for important survivors.
All those rolls on augury also mean that you have many survivors with full understanding.
This wayyou can work on building some real beasts with Leyline Walker or Ageless.

Quote:
That said, you can really work with what you have now. Updated Romantic still falls behind a bit, but at least is more useful than before.


That´s a very nice thing in general.
We wouldn´t have a discussion, if not all of the principles would be godd or interesting in some way.
That´s good gamedesign.
The only thing I dislike is, that Protect the Young in combination with the "good guy principle" turns the game into some kind of easy mode.
Deaths do not matter much anymore.
 
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Sam D
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Is collective toil useful in comination with survival of the fittest?

It is population dependent, but it is hard to get (and keep) population with SotF.
 
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George Aristides
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Slaaneth wrote:
Is collective toil useful in comination with survival of the fittest?

It is population dependent, but it is hard to get (and keep) population with SotF.


I think Accept Darkness is clearly optimal when you go SotF. But from reading this thread i am concluding that Collective Toil is probably a viable route if you are going PtY and intend to have lots of expendable survivors
 
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