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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fire & Darkness rss

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Tyler Lloyd
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Fire and Darkness are two sides of the same token, because you ignore darkness in a space with fire, so you can just flip the darkness token over if the space catches fire. But what happens when you later extinguish the fire in that space? Does the darkness return? Obviously you could just flip the token back over, but that makes the players responsible to remember which spaces had darkness, which seems odd.

Alternatively, you could keep the darkness token on the board and place a fire token next to it, but that would make the board a bit confusing and render the double-sided fire/darkness tokens meaningless.

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Chick Lewis
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You raise a good point, but printing the opposite token on the back actually is meaningful, because this way one has twice as many of each token available.
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Tyler Lloyd
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chicklewis wrote:
You raise a good point, but printing the opposite token on the back actually is meaningful, because this way one has twice as many of each token available.


Sure, but they had to anticipate that players would, as a result, flip darkness over to fire when fire is set and then discard the token altogether when the fire is extinguished. If that's not how the rules work, then the double-sided token creates rules confusion--and for what benefit? A few extra of each type of token?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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You should not flip the tokens to represent fire. You should actually keep both Tokens there. The reason why these are on either side is to reduce the number of tokens needed in the box.

If you like, cover the darkness token with the fire token to remove the clutter issue.

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Tyler Lloyd
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Clipper wrote:
You should not flip the tokens to represent fire. You should actually keep both Tokens there. The reason why these are on either side is to reduce the number of tokens needed in the box.


Your argument would be more persuasive if FFG didn't give us about a bajillion fire/darkness tokens.

I agree with your interpretation of the rules, but I think printing the tokens the way they did was a poor design choice.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Why is it a poor design choice? If you were intended to flip them, the rules would tell you to flip them, they aren’t going to expect you to infer such a fact with rules as detailed as the level in the RRG.

You sometimes do need all those tokens of one type or the other type but rarely need that much of both types. If the tokens had the same thing on either side, you would need twice as many tokens for situations that are unlikely to happen.

To take your statement of the number, do you really want to pay extra to have two bajillion tokens in the box rather than one bajillion?
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Tyler Lloyd
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Clipper wrote:
Why is it a poor design choice? If you were intended to flip them, the rules would tell you to flip them, they aren’t going to expect you to infer such a fact with rules as detailed as the level in the RRG.


The fact that you ignore darkness in spaces that contain fire surely has led more people than just myself to conclude that the purpose behind the double-sided tokens is that they can be flipped from one to the other. The very first time I looked at the tokens I thought "why are fire and darkness printed on the same token? Oh, of course! Because it wouldn't make sense for fire and darkness to exist in the same space, so you'll only ever need one or the other in a space." As I said, I have become convinced that my intuition was mistaken, but I don't think it was unreasonable.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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tlloyd wrote:
The fact that you ignore darkness in spaces that contain fire surely has led more people than just myself to conclude that the purpose behind the double-sided tokens is that they can be flipped from one to the other.

So what should they have done to improve the design without doubling the number of tokens in the box?
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Tyler Lloyd
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Clipper wrote:
So what should they have done to improve the design without doubling the number of tokens in the box?


I've already said that we have more fire/darkness tokens than we could ever need. This implies we could have separate tokens without having to double the number. But I concede that double-sided tokens are efficient. It's just that in the case where the two sides also have a somewhat complex interaction, the efficiency also comes with a cost of increased rules confusion.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I have definitely heard of people running out of fire tokens. I’ve experienced cases where large portions of the map went dark too. It’s why they included extra tokens in the first expansion, as you must agree there would be absolutely no need to include extra if you only needed half the tokens that come in the original box.

There is another benefit to having the tokens on alternate sides of each other too, and that’s for when you are using baggies or a component box, as having the two hazards being alternate sides of the same token set is useful, in the same way that the other tokens are paired with loosely related effects.
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Lewis Karl
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There are NOT too many fire/darkness tokens in the base game. Add the tokens from all expansions and maybe there are extras. But, you can't predict the size of upcoming official or fan-based scenarios. There must be 1 darkness and 1 fire token for every tile in a scenario.

I didn't find it confusing for more than a few seconds that a tile could be both in darkness and in fire. It becomes pretty obvious when you plan to extinguish fire in a room and realize the electricity is still out in that room. They are clearly two different but related things and therefore makes perfect sense they be on opposite sides of the same token.
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Tyler Lloyd
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pisqueeter wrote:
Add the tokens from all expansions and maybe there are extras.


Apparently we agree.

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But, you can't predict the size of upcoming official or fan-based scenarios. There must be 1 darkness and 1 fire token for every tile in a scenario.


This is silly. Must there be an infinite amount of clue tokens in the game? Must there be as many door and wall and secret passage tokens as could EVER CONCEIVABLY be called for in a FAN-BASED scenario?

Quote:
I didn't find it confusing for more than a few seconds that a tile could be both in darkness and in fire.It becomes pretty obvious when you plan to extinguish fire in a room and realize the electricity is still out in that room.


This is exactly the thought process I went through that led to this post. So, thanks?

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They are clearly two different but related things and therefore makes perfect sense they be on opposite sides of the same token.


This is argument by assertion. Having two conditions on flip sides of the same token implies that only one of the two conditions can apply, which is more or less how the game works (as you ignore darkness when fire is present).
 
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Arto Hietanen
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Last night I played Escape from Innsmouth for the first time. I had three investigators and as I was playing solo, I used two fire/dark tokens to mark the investigator actions to keep track who had already acted that turn. At the end of the game, I had to change to ?/! tokens, as there was so much fire and darkness in the game board that I would otherwise had run out of those tokens. In the end I did not run out, as I lost the game quite soon after, but IMO the amount of supplied fire/dark tokens is about right for basic game play.

I also must say that having flippable tokens did not confuse me, there are other multipurpose tokens like that in the game and also in other games, so I would never think of flipping a token on my own unless instructed by the rules.
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