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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Monsters and adjacent space. rss

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Millo Millo
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If a monster can attacks an investigator on adjacent space, can attack through the walls?
 
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John Van Wagoner
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no...
 
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chuck reaume
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Under walls in the rules reference, it says Effects that affect adjacent spaces cannot affect spaces through walls unless an effect specifically allows it.

So no, unless the monster has the ability to do so. Ex: Ghosts.
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Millo Millo
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...so two rooms separated by walls are not considerated adjacents.
 
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Tyler Lloyd
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reemer wrote:
Under walls in the rules reference, it says Effects that affect adjacent spaces cannot affect spaces through walls unless an effect specifically allows it.

So no, unless the monster has the ability to do so. Ex: Ghosts.


This issue is a bit more complicated than it first appears. Ghosts, for example, can move through walls. So if the app instructs you to move the Ghost "two spaces toward the nearest investigator," then you ignore walls when determining which investigator is nearest and then move the ghost toward that investigator, passing through walls if necessary.

But what if the app instructed you to move the ghost "two spaces toward an investigator in range"? Would you determine range as usual, or would you ignore walls because the ghost can move through them? Similarly, if the app instructed you to move the ghost "adjacent to an investigator," could you count adjacency through a wall? It's not clear.

And what if the app said that the ghost "attacks an investigator in an adjacent space"? The rules make clear that this can't happen "unless an effect specifically allows it." Does the ghost's ability to move through walls count as "specifically allowing" the ghost to attack through walls? Again, it's not clear.
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Marlene Thornstrom
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tlloyd wrote:
But what if the app instructed you to move the ghost "two spaces toward an investigator in range"? Would you determine range as usual, or would you ignore walls because the ghost can move through them? Similarly, if the app instructed you to move the ghost "adjacent to an investigator," could you count adjacency through a wall? It's not clear.


I would go with the definition of "range" from the rules reference:
The range of effects that use the phrase “within range” is up to three spaces away.
^ Range cannot be counted through walls or doors unless an effect specifically allows it.
^ Range can be counted through impassable borders.


If the ghost's special ability is phrased similar to "ignore doors and walls when determining if something is within range", then you would do so. But if it just says that ghosts can move through walls, then you would determine range as above.

Here's the definition of "adjacent":
Two spaces are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an impassable border, or a wall.
^ Two rooms are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an impassable border, or a wall.
^ A door is adjacent to each space for which it is a space edge.


If you're supposed to move the ghost to a space adjacent to the investigator (with no other restrictions), then choose a space adjacent (as defined above) to the investigator and move the ghost there, through walls if necessary.

tlloyd wrote:
And what if the app said that the ghost "attacks an investigator in an adjacent space"? The rules make clear that this can't happen "unless an effect specifically allows it." Does the ghost's ability to move through walls count as "specifically allowing" the ghost to attack through walls? Again, it's not clear.


If the ghost's ability specifically mentions moving through walls as being the exception, then it doesn't modify the attack.

It would help if OP could share the exact instructions from the app so we can dissect them.
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Kevin Blumhardt
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reemer wrote:
Under walls in the rules reference, it says Effects that affect adjacent spaces cannot affect spaces through walls unless an effect specifically allows it.


Note that this rules quote is also an excellent lesson in the difference between "affect" and "effect".

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Jorgen Peddersen
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I agree with the above posts about walls blocking attacks unless the monster or app instruction specifically state the monster can attack through walls, and I don’t think an example for that currently exists.

Having said that, any monster specifically attacking an adjacent space can do so through a door or secret passage. These spaces are adjacent, so the attack will work.
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Tyler Lloyd
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Tikatoy wrote:
If you're supposed to move the ghost to a space adjacent to the investigator (with no other restrictions), then choose a space adjacent (as defined above) to the investigator and move the ghost there, through walls if necessary.

tlloyd wrote:
And what if the app said that the ghost "attacks an investigator in an adjacent space"? The rules make clear that this can't happen "unless an effect specifically allows it." Does the ghost's ability to move through walls count as "specifically allowing" the ghost to attack through walls? Again, it's not clear.


If the ghost's ability specifically mentions moving through walls as being the exception, then it doesn't modify the attack.


This may be right, but look what follows: a ghost is instructed to "move two spaces to be adjacent to an investigator, then attack an investigator in an adjacent space" (this instruction is made up, but I've seen similar). The ghost is two spaces away from Investigator A and in the same room. The ghost is also already adjacent to Investigator B who is in a different room, on the other side of a wall. The players could choose to have the ghost not move (staying adjacent to Investigator B), but then not be able to attack, since the ghost's ability to move through walls doesn't imply an ability to attack through walls.

I don't know if this was FFG's intent, but I think a simpler rule would be that anything which can move through walls can also attack through walls.
 
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Tyler Lloyd
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Clipper wrote:
I agree with the above posts about walls blocking attacks unless the monster or app instruction specifically state the monster can attack through walls, and I don’t think an example for that currently exists.


I'm 90% certain that in one of the times I played Shattered Bonds the app instructed a certain monster to attack and specified that the attack could go through walls.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Have you seen similar examples for the Ghost in particular? I think they steer clear of giving the Ghost such instructions.

In any case, even if a Ghost is given such an instruction, you shouldn’t consider the space on the other side of the wall to be a valid end-point for the move. The Ghost can move through walls, but it has no specific instruction to consider itself to be adjacent to investigators on the other side of a wall.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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tlloyd wrote:
Clipper wrote:
I agree with the above posts about walls blocking attacks unless the monster or app instruction specifically state the monster can attack through walls, and I don’t think an example for that currently exists.


I'm 90% certain that in one of the times I played Shattered Bonds the app instructed a certain monster to attack and specified that the attack could go through walls.


Ah good, so an example does exist.
 
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Millo Millo
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i don't understand...

Here's the definition of "adjacent":
Two spaces are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an impassable border, or a wall.

but a monster can't attack through walls regardless of the app says that the monster attacks on adjacent space?
 
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Marlene Thornstrom
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Millo76 wrote:
i don't understand...

Here's the definition of "adjacent":
Two spaces are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an impassable border, or a wall.

but a monster can't attack through walls regardless of the app says that the monster attacks on adjacent space?


It's because of this exception:

reemer wrote:
Under walls in the rules reference, it says Effects that affect adjacent spaces cannot affect spaces through walls unless an effect specifically allows it.

So no, unless the monster has the ability to do so. Ex: Ghosts.


Conveniently, this is under "walls" and not "adjacent" in the reference.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Read the Walls section of the rules as well. It’s hard for me to provide a quote (broke my laptop screen last night and I’m limited to my phone), but you’ll find there the rule that alters the adjacency rules such that effects must specifically mention they can go through walls to do so.

Edit: ninja
 
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Marlene Thornstrom
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tlloyd wrote:
Tikatoy wrote:
If you're supposed to move the ghost to a space adjacent to the investigator (with no other restrictions), then choose a space adjacent (as defined above) to the investigator and move the ghost there, through walls if necessary.

tlloyd wrote:
And what if the app said that the ghost "attacks an investigator in an adjacent space"? The rules make clear that this can't happen "unless an effect specifically allows it." Does the ghost's ability to move through walls count as "specifically allowing" the ghost to attack through walls? Again, it's not clear.


If the ghost's ability specifically mentions moving through walls as being the exception, then it doesn't modify the attack.


This may be right, but look what follows: a ghost is instructed to "move two spaces to be adjacent to an investigator, then attack an investigator in an adjacent space" (this instruction is made up, but I've seen similar). The ghost is two spaces away from Investigator A and in the same room. The ghost is also already adjacent to Investigator B who is in a different room, on the other side of a wall. The players could choose to have the ghost not move (staying adjacent to Investigator B), but then not be able to attack, since the ghost's ability to move through walls doesn't imply an ability to attack through walls.

I don't know if this was FFG's intent, but I think a simpler rule would be that anything which can move through walls can also attack through walls.


I feel like we have had this discussion before in a different scenario which also ended up with being able to follow the rules literally while exploiting them to the players' advantage.

I can't think of an instance where you would want to specifically allow a monster to move through walls but disallow attacking through them. Shouldn't be too hard to add this to the monster's special ability text.
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Tyler Lloyd
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Clipper wrote:
In any case, even if a Ghost is given such an instruction, you shouldn’t consider the space on the other side of the wall to be a valid end-point for the move. The Ghost can move through walls, but it has no specific instruction to consider itself to be adjacent to investigators on the other side of a wall.


This whole discussion demonstrates (yet again) the need for FFG to clarify the adjacency/walls rules in an updated rules reference. But I don't agree with your argument here. Two spaces on either side of a wall are adjacent. A ghost moving to be adjacent to an investigator is not an "effect" that would be subject to the exclusion under the rules for walls.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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So you are arguing that you think the rules tell us that a monster can be adjacent to an investigator during the movement part of the instruction but not the attack part of the same instruction?

The effect in this case is following the monster instruction.
 
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Tyler Lloyd
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Clipper wrote:
So you are arguing that you think the rules tell us that a monster can be adjacent to an investigator during the movement part of the instruction but not the attack part of the same instruction?


This is obviously true if a ghost can move through walls but not attack through walls.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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tlloyd wrote:

This may be right, but look what follows: a ghost is instructed to "move two spaces to be adjacent to an investigator, then attack an investigator in an adjacent space" (this instruction is made up, but I've seen similar). The ghost is two spaces away from Investigator A and in the same room. The ghost is also already adjacent to Investigator B who is in a different room, on the other side of a wall.


But if it is on the other side of a wall it is not adjacent by the definition given in the rules.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
tlloyd wrote:

This may be right, but look what follows: a ghost is instructed to "move two spaces to be adjacent to an investigator, then attack an investigator in an adjacent space" (this instruction is made up, but I've seen similar). The ghost is two spaces away from Investigator A and in the same room. The ghost is also already adjacent to Investigator B who is in a different room, on the other side of a wall.


But if it is on the other side of a wall it is not adjacent by the definition given in the rules.

Yep. Although it could move to that space, it is not adjacent to figures in the space. Movement and considering adjacency are different effects.
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Tyler Lloyd
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
tlloyd wrote:

This may be right, but look what follows: a ghost is instructed to "move two spaces to be adjacent to an investigator, then attack an investigator in an adjacent space" (this instruction is made up, but I've seen similar). The ghost is two spaces away from Investigator A and in the same room. The ghost is also already adjacent to Investigator B who is in a different room, on the other side of a wall.


But if it is on the other side of a wall it is not adjacent by the definition given in the rules.


That's incorrect. "Two spaces are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an impassable border, or a wall."
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Tyler Lloyd
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Clipper wrote:
Movement and considering adjacency are different effects.


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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tlloyd wrote:
Clipper wrote:
Movement and considering adjacency are different effects.


You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

If you think my interpretation is wrong, then send a query to FFG. My interpretation matches the prior rulings made by FFG on not attacking through walls and also fits common sense.

We know from rulings that the monster cannot attack through the wall. If you really believe the devs intend you to be able to move monsters to spaces behind walls to satisfy a ‘move to be adjacent’ instruction, then prove it, as the position appears to be absurd.
 
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
tlloyd wrote:

This may be right, but look what follows: a ghost is instructed to "move two spaces to be adjacent to an investigator, then attack an investigator in an adjacent space" (this instruction is made up, but I've seen similar). The ghost is two spaces away from Investigator A and in the same room. The ghost is also already adjacent to Investigator B who is in a different room, on the other side of a wall.


But if it is on the other side of a wall it is not adjacent by the definition given in the rules.


Holy sh** dudes. The intent of the instruction is the ghost attacks. You therefore move the ghost to a place where it can attack. If it can't move into the room with B and be adjacent without having to attack through walls, just move adjacent to A, which is in the same room and have it attack A.

I know that doesn't address the hypothetical question you are trying to raise. But why raise a hypothetical question that may never arise?

I agree the rules as currently written do not allow a ghost to attack through walls. Your choices at this point:

1) Read rules literally and do not allow it and therefore make the best attempt you can to move the ghost to a space where it CAN attack when given such an attack order.

2) Allow it, because after all its a ghost and as a brave player you want to be attacked. I allowed a similar attack from the Star Spawn because it used sound and I figured that booming sound would surely travel through an adjacent wall.

Personally when I play solo/cooperative games and are faced with this situation of ambiguous rules (though in this case they are not ambiguous, just not as clean as some would like), I choose the ruling that penalizes the player the most. So move that ghost where it can do the most damage and take it like any reasonably courageous Arkham investigator would.
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