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Subject: Hate the Sin, Not the Sinner rss

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So this came up today in the thread I posted about Mike Pence. Again. Jay said that Pence really doesn't hate gay people. He just hates the actions of gay people, because "most Christians are against homosexual activity rather than homosexual people, which is a thing they do, not who they are."

It's the whole hate the sin, not the sinner.

But it's really just bullshit when you start talking about politicians and religious groups lobbying for restrictions on LGBT individuals. I'm really tired of hearing it in that context.

No. When you do the following, you aren't showing that you are just against the activities of LGBT persons. You're showing that you're against those persons.

-lobbying against laws that protect people from being discriminated against in their place of employment based on being LGBT.

-passing laws in North Carolina that prohibit cities and towns in the state from protecting LGBT persons from discrimination.

And then there are laws that restrict said sinning, such as the laws in Texas governing sodomy that were struck down. You can try and argue that's hating the sin, not the sinner, but it's again bullshit. When's the last time that a Christian lobbied for laws making sex out of wedlock illegal? Like never? And why is that? Oh right. Because this entire thing is bullshit once you people start advocating for restricting other people's rights.

And so on. You've kind of shown that you really just hate gay people.
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But it's really just bullshit


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If the people who say they love the sinner do nothing more than just yell at them in an effort to change who they are, then that's not love. I do believe that "Love the sinner, not the sin" is a wonderful way to live life, but it's also hard.

It's hard because it necessitates loving them even if they don't abandon their sin just because you love them. Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves. But you still love them. You serve them. You do all you can to help them be happy and prosperous, but you do it without condoning one particular part of the path they've chosen. And it doesn't matter if it's gay sex, straight sex outside marriage, dishonesty, exploiting those less fortunate than yourself, whatever it is. You remind them from time to time that there is a better way, and then you show the meaning of those words by loving them. Serving them. And then hurting because they still don't change. So you serve them some more.

THAT is love.

Yelling at someone from behind a picket sign isn't love.
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So GC and Jay;

What can a gay person do in your view to be a decent person?
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whac3 wrote:
So GC and Jay;

What can a gay person do in your view to be a decent person?


Don't kick puppies?

Decent and nondecent are different than sinful or non-sinful. My default is that everyone I meet is a decent person until they give Me cause to think otherwise. My default is also that everyone is sinful in their own way. I am called on to love others in spite of their sins just as I hope they would love Me in spite of Mine.

I get that the marketing department for Love The Sinner, Inc is at a low point right now, but there are still some of out there for whom it means more than just a justification to bully others and not feel like a hypocrite about it.
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The gays just need to turn it off, like a light switch.

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GameCrossing wrote:
If the people who say they love the sinner do nothing more than just yell at them in an effort to change who they are, then that's not love. I do believe that "Love the sinner, not the sin" is a wonderful way to live life, but it's also hard.

It's hard because it necessitates loving them even if they don't abandon their sin just because you love them. Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves. But you still love them. You serve them. You do all you can to help them be happy and prosperous, but you do it without condoning one particular part of the path they've chosen. And it doesn't matter if it's gay sex, straight sex outside marriage, dishonesty, exploiting those less fortunate than yourself, whatever it is. You remind them from time to time that there is a better way, and then you show the meaning of those words by loving them. Serving them. And then hurting because they still don't change. So you serve them some more.

THAT is love.

Yelling at someone from behind a picket sign isn't love.

Since I reject the concept of sin entirely this is all just religious b.s. to me.
Sin is a concept irretrievably tied up with Christianity in our culture. I am not saying that there are no bad acts or indeed bad people, but sin implies a morality different from societal norms. It enables the religious to judge people by standards the majority do not accept and also enables Christians to invent a sense of persecution if their concept of sin no longer conforms to society.
It also allows them to justify attempting to impose that norm on a society that rejects it.
"Hate the sin not the sinner" is an example. This implies an ability to decide that homosexuality is wrong when society accepts it as a norm, and a right to trumpet this message. And let's be clear it is never applied to any other issue in reality.
Well we aren't accepting that anymore, and "hate the sin mot the sinner"is a flag of bigotry just as much as "seperate but equal" was in the past about black people.
So no it's not a great way to live it's a signal of an attitude that would leave me quietly ignoring someone and then making sure I went to no more social events with them, just as I do with racists and Arsenal supporters.
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GameCrossing wrote:
Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves.


the problem with this viewpoint is that when applies to gay people, your best-case scenario is that it is inherently patronizing to gay people, and that's the best-case scenario
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GameCrossing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
So GC and Jay;

What can a gay person do in your view to be a decent person?


Don't kick puppies?

Decent and nondecent are different than sinful or non-sinful. My default is that everyone I meet is a decent person until they give Me cause to think otherwise. My default is also that everyone is sinful in their own way. I am called on to love others in spite of their sins just as I hope they would love Me in spite of Mine.

I get that the marketing department for Love The Sinner, Inc is at a low point right now, but there are still some of out there for whom it means more than just a justification to bully others and not feel like a hypocrite about it.

Then sinful is meaningless to non-Christians. It's just an excuse to treat people as immoral without the moral courage to honestly call them such.
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mightygodking wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves.


the problem with this viewpoint is that when applies to gay people, your best-case scenario is that it is inherently patronizing to gay people, and that's the best-case scenario


With how it's been weaponized by many, I can see why you would feel that way.
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whac3 wrote:
So GC and Jay;

What can a gay person do in your view to be a decent person?

1. So how can gay people be no more sinful than anyone else?
2. If they are just as sinful as anyone else, why are they selected out for special treatment?
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GameCrossing wrote:
It's hard because it necessitates loving them even if they don't abandon their sin just because you love them. Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves. But you still love them. You serve them. You do all you can to help them be happy and prosperous, but you do it without condoning one particular part of the path they've chosen. And it doesn't matter if it's gay sex, straight sex outside marriage, dishonesty, exploiting those less fortunate than yourself, whatever it is. You remind them from time to time that there is a better way, and then you show the meaning of those words by loving them. Serving them. And then hurting because they still don't change. So you serve them some more.

THAT is love.

Yelling at someone from behind a picket sign isn't love.


No, refusing to accept someone's sexuality and hectoring them that they are "sinful" is not love. That's abject hate, and spiteful persecution. I won't even bother with the incredible patronising arrogance.

So tell me, do you honestly think that people who happen to have sex with people of the same gender are hurting themselves? That there is a "better way"?
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GameCrossing wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves.


the problem with this viewpoint is that when applies to gay people, your best-case scenario is that it is inherently patronizing to gay people, and that's the best-case scenario


With how it's been weaponized by many, I can see why you would feel that way.

And how do you see it? It's not been weaponised by many. It's the whole thing. That phrase is only to bash gay people. It is a form of what Augustine said but his is plural not singular which is a humanist directive. Gandhi used it is one of his speeches and then it became currency recently. It's a phrase about signalling these days. Trying to pretend it's not is just wishful thinking.
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whac3 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
So GC and Jay;

What can a gay person do in your view to be a decent person?


Don't kick puppies?

Decent and nondecent are different than sinful or non-sinful. My default is that everyone I meet is a decent person until they give Me cause to think otherwise. My default is also that everyone is sinful in their own way. I am called on to love others in spite of their sins just as I hope they would love Me in spite of Mine.

I get that the marketing department for Love The Sinner, Inc is at a low point right now, but there are still some of out there for whom it means more than just a justification to bully others and not feel like a hypocrite about it.

Then sinful is meaningless to non-Christians. It's just an excuse to treat people as immoral without the moral courage to honestly call them such.


Not at all. It means that my call is not to condemn them. My call is to love them. The hope is that through my example, in spite of my own sins, people see something reflected in my acts which draws them toward Christ. Now, if someone asks me my opinion on X, I'll tell them what I think. That conversation has been had with a few passengers of mine who initiated that particular conversation. But only because they asked. And oddly, not one of them ever left feeling like I was some hateful bigot, even though they clearly went into the conversation hopeful to get some religious zealot upon whom to unload. But the thing is, if they come to Christ, then they will get to have their own relationship with Him and work out for themselves what does or doesn't fit that relationship.

I am told not to judge. I do my best. I don't always succeed. But I try.

I drive for Uber. That means I drive a lot of drunk people around. But my religion teaches that using alcohol is sinful. Yet there I am, driving drunk people around. Helping keep them safe. Because I try to be a good example and to serve them.

I drive for Uber. That means I drive a lot of people who are out trying to hook up for sex outside marriage. My religion teaches that sex outside marriage is sinful. Yet there I am, driving horny frat boys around and listening to their vile discussions. Because they need to be kept safe as well. And I can serve them.

I drive for Uber. That means I get lots of requests to pick people up from or take them to gay bars. And holy hell, I refuse every one of those requests that pops up on my phone. I mean, if they get in my car when I didn't know they were gay, I can hold my tongue about it until I get rid of them. But if I know beforehand because of where they're going? Man, I am glad to get out of that obligation.

That's what you expect of me, yeah?
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GameCrossing wrote:
With how it's been weaponized by many, I can see why you would feel that way.


it's not "how it's been weaponized," it's because it's flawed at the core

your viewpoint fundamentally boils down to "those poor gay people just don't realize they're hurting themselves"; there is literally no way for that not to be patronizing

and given that your basis for this viewpoint is A) a couple of passages from Leviticus - a text that is routinely selectively read by Christians to say the least - and B) not a whole fuck of a lot else, it's actually almost always going to be worse than just patronizing anyway
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whac3 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
So GC and Jay;

What can a gay person do in your view to be a decent person?

1. So how can gay people be no more sinful than anyone else?
2. If they are just as sinful as anyone else, why are they selected out for special treatment?


1) Because without Christ's atonement, any sin, no matter how small is sufficient to keep you from God's presence.
2) They shouldn't be.
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DavidDearlove wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
If the people who say they love the sinner do nothing more than just yell at them in an effort to change who they are, then that's not love. I do believe that "Love the sinner, not the sin" is a wonderful way to live life, but it's also hard.

It's hard because it necessitates loving them even if they don't abandon their sin just because you love them. Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves. But you still love them. You serve them. You do all you can to help them be happy and prosperous, but you do it without condoning one particular part of the path they've chosen. And it doesn't matter if it's gay sex, straight sex outside marriage, dishonesty, exploiting those less fortunate than yourself, whatever it is. You remind them from time to time that there is a better way, and then you show the meaning of those words by loving them. Serving them. And then hurting because they still don't change. So you serve them some more.

THAT is love.

Yelling at someone from behind a picket sign isn't love.

Since I reject the concept of sin entirely this is all just religious b.s. to me.
Sin is a concept irretrievably tied up with Christianity in our culture. I am not saying that there are no bad acts or indeed bad people, but sin implies a morality different from societal norms. It enables the religious to judge people by standards the majority do not accept and also enables Christians to invent a sense of persecution if their concept of sin no longer conforms to society.
It also allows them to justify attempting to impose that norm on a society that rejects it.
"Hate the sin not the sinner" is an example. This implies an ability to decide that homosexuality is wrong when society accepts it as a norm, and a right to trumpet this message. And let's be clear it is never applied to any other issue in reality.
Well we aren't accepting that anymore, and "hate the sin mot the sinner"is a flag of bigotry just as much as "seperate but equal" was in the past about black people.
So no it's not a great way to live it's a signal of an attitude that would leave me quietly ignoring someone and then making sure I went to no more social events with them, just as I do with racists and Arsenal supporters.


Yeah. If you don't accept the concept of sin, then it is a lot of hooey, just as would my view on sex outside marriage, gambling, swearing, alcohol, and honoring the sabbath.

But when you take your view on sin (no such thing) and project it onto those who to hold to such a view and then ascribe motivations on them based on your view and not theirs, yeah. I get that I'm not going to come out looking to well under that model. But because my understanding and belief about sin is not yours, my motivations are different than what you suppose them to be. Now, I doubt you'll go along with that, and that's fine. In your mind, I'm a hate-filled bigot.

But I believe what I believe and being thought of as a bigot by someone doesn't change that. The best I can do is keep trying to be understood, and try to live in a way that the way I love others overcomes that stigma people have of those of faith.
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DavidDearlove wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves.


the problem with this viewpoint is that when applies to gay people, your best-case scenario is that it is inherently patronizing to gay people, and that's the best-case scenario


With how it's been weaponized by many, I can see why you would feel that way.

And how do you see it? It's not been weaponised by many. It's the whole thing. That phrase is only to bash gay people. It is a form of what Augustine said but his is plural not singular which is a humanist directive. Gandhi used it is one of his speeches and then it became currency recently. It's a phrase about signalling these days. Trying to pretend it's not is just wishful thinking.


I am not ignorant of how it is most commonly used. But I can't let that use deter me from trying to live by what it ought to mean.
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whac3 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
So GC and Jay;

What can a gay person do in your view to be a decent person?


Don't kick puppies?

Decent and nondecent are different than sinful or non-sinful. My default is that everyone I meet is a decent person until they give Me cause to think otherwise. My default is also that everyone is sinful in their own way. I am called on to love others in spite of their sins just as I hope they would love Me in spite of Mine.

I get that the marketing department for Love The Sinner, Inc is at a low point right now, but there are still some of out there for whom it means more than just a justification to bully others and not feel like a hypocrite about it.

Then sinful is meaningless to non-Christians. It's just an excuse to treat people as immoral without the moral courage to honestly call them such.


Many many religions have concepts equivalent to 'sin'.
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mightygodking wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
With how it's been weaponized by many, I can see why you would feel that way.


it's not "how it's been weaponized," it's because it's flawed at the core

your viewpoint fundamentally boils down to "those poor gay people just don't realize they're hurting themselves"; there is literally no way for that not to be patronizing

and given that your basis for this viewpoint is A) a couple of passages from Leviticus - a text that is routinely selectively read by Christians to say the least - and B) not a whole fuck of a lot else, it's actually almost always going to be worse than just patronizing anyway


Actually, it is based on more. It is also based on revelation by a modern prophet. Now I know you don't believe in such things, but I do. So my basis is on something more. Your view of that "something more" may be low, but for me it's not.

Look, the view I hold is never going to be popular. It's getting less so every day. But my view is two-fold.

1) Sex outside marriage is sinful. That's Ten Commandment level stuff right there.
2) Marriage in the eyes of God is ordained to be between one man and one woman.

Now, I know that the laws of the land aren't to be dependent on the views of a deity. They're to be based on equality. And so I get that marriage for all need to be a thing. I'm on board with it. Support that equality under the law.

And yes, I get that for those who do adhere to those two viewpoints above, it creates a bit of a catch-22. And it's one I don't envy. It basically means a lifetime of abstinence.

But by my beliefs, there is lots people have to give up. I am convinced that I would have been great at poker had I devoted myself to it. But gambling is sinful. So I gave that up. Alcohol. Drugs. Sunday brunches. None of that. Now, those all pale by far to giving up a lifetime of intimate companionship. So as I said, I don't envy those who do hold to the views I do and feel compelled to walk that path. I know I couldn't. But I believe that anyone who chooses to sacrifice to live what they believe to be a higher law learns from it, is blessed by it. And so what others learn by that, I can't imagine.

So the trials of others, struggles of others, dark corners in which others may dwell, I know nothing of them. So I do my best to not judge. I do my best to love them because their paths and their sacrifices are not my own. My own, I am barely making it. I feel like I fail at it a remarkable amount of the time. So if I know that I am far from measuring up, how can I look on others and say "Dude, that's pretty bad."

I get that none of this will matter to you. All you will see is me justifying. But to me it matters. I truly am working at internalizing these things. Not being judgmental. (My RSP track record shows... not so good at it.) Not condemning others. (I think I am better at that one, though I know I'm still well short of it.) Loving others regardless of how they view my beliefs. Not looking down on others who don't live the way my faith teaches. (Those ones, I think I am much better at and am getting better at every day.)

All of that, that's part of loving others. And so I try to learn that from the lessons that are put in my life.
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JasonJ0 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
It's hard because it necessitates loving them even if they don't abandon their sin just because you love them. Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves. But you still love them. You serve them. You do all you can to help them be happy and prosperous, but you do it without condoning one particular part of the path they've chosen. And it doesn't matter if it's gay sex, straight sex outside marriage, dishonesty, exploiting those less fortunate than yourself, whatever it is. You remind them from time to time that there is a better way, and then you show the meaning of those words by loving them. Serving them. And then hurting because they still don't change. So you serve them some more.

THAT is love.

Yelling at someone from behind a picket sign isn't love.


No, refusing to accept someone's sexuality and hectoring them that they are "sinful" is not love. That's abject hate, and spiteful persecution. I won't even bother with the incredible patronising arrogance.

So tell me, do you honestly think that people who happen to have sex with people of the same gender are hurting themselves? That there is a "better way"?


The same way I would think that there is a better way for someone who gambles and does well at it, never jeopardizes his family's well-being by being responsible about it. The same way I think there is a better way for someone who enjoys a drink with dinner. The same way I think that there is a better way for someone who enjoys going to the movies on Sunday afternoon because the theaters are less crowded. I think all of those people are hurting themselves. I think there's a better way for all of them.

If I treat someone differently because I suspect something about their sin, regardless what it is, then that's me failing. That is me not doing what I am called to do. And if I interject myself into someone's life and tell them what a horrible sinful person they are, then I am mega-failing. But if I keep my beliefs of right and wrong to myself, make my focus to live what I believe to the best of my ability rather than trying to actively export my beliefs onto others, and only share when people ask me about it because there is something about how I live my life that draws them to ask, if I live my life as the example I am called to be, am I bigot? If so, I suspect I'm the most impotent bigot out there.

Now, the one thing I will cop to is that I got caught up in the moment. Adding "gay sex" to the list. I took the belief others have of me, that I believe being gay is wrong, and threw it at the beginning of that list. Then I added things that I actually do think are sinful. Sex outside marriage, gay or straight. The way I put it before, that's a bad look and I'll own that. That's my fault. I spoke poorly.
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windsagio wrote:
whac3 wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
So GC and Jay;

What can a gay person do in your view to be a decent person?


Don't kick puppies?

Decent and nondecent are different than sinful or non-sinful. My default is that everyone I meet is a decent person until they give Me cause to think otherwise. My default is also that everyone is sinful in their own way. I am called on to love others in spite of their sins just as I hope they would love Me in spite of Mine.

I get that the marketing department for Love The Sinner, Inc is at a low point right now, but there are still some of out there for whom it means more than just a justification to bully others and not feel like a hypocrite about it.

Then sinful is meaningless to non-Christians. It's just an excuse to treat people as immoral without the moral courage to honestly call them such.


Many many religions have concepts equivalent to 'sin'.

Not really. sin is bad karma without the possibility of good karma, tallying wrong-doings while ignoring any good deeds-- indeed denying there can be any good deeds.
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Christopher Dearlove
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Chelmsford
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SoRCon 11 23-25 Feb 2018 Basildon UK http://www.sorcon.co.uk
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GameCrossing wrote:
I drive for Uber.


There's a real sin.
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David Dearlove
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GameCrossing wrote:

1) Because without Christ's atonement, any sin, no matter how small is sufficient to keep you from God's presence.

Well you might think that. Doesn't make it true. Therefore telling that just makes you look bad.
And before you object to my comment just imagine what your telling gay people that they are sinful does to them. I have zero sympathy for your position.
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David Dearlove
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GameCrossing wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
Now you are loving someone who you see is hurting themselves.


the problem with this viewpoint is that when applies to gay people, your best-case scenario is that it is inherently patronizing to gay people, and that's the best-case scenario


With how it's been weaponized by many, I can see why you would feel that way.

And how do you see it? It's not been weaponised by many. It's the whole thing. That phrase is only to bash gay people. It is a form of what Augustine said but his is plural not singular which is a humanist directive. Gandhi used it is one of his speeches and then it became currency recently. It's a phrase about signalling these days. Trying to pretend it's not is just wishful thinking.


I am not ignorant of how it is most commonly used. But I can't let that use deter me from trying to live by what it ought to mean.

You can't repurpose language to mean what you want it to mean. If you use that phrase you are signalling bigotry.
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