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Subject: GMT: Is it just me? rss

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kevin halloran
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I have decided to no longer buy games from GMT. Concerns over a decade were recently brought to a head by the company's decision to publish a second edition of Wing Leader; Victories and an American Revolution triple pack. I am a big fan of LBW's games but to bring out a revised edition after only two years and expect me to pay around £30 for an update kit is simply not right. LBW may protest that the First Edition is still perfectly playable but that misses the point. With the American Revolution game GMT are not even offering an update kit and yet the new edition offers mounted maps, new scenarios and updated counters. I buy games from other publishers like Legion, Hexasim, OSG and the Jours de Gloire series and they don't do this. I feel I can no longer trust GMT not to bring out an improved edition of any game they publish and frankly I'm fed up with it.
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Eddy Sterckx
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winheath wrote:
I buy games from other publishers like Legion, Hexasim, OSG and the Jours de Gloire series and they don't do this.


Don't fix known issues in a re-print and get called out for it.

Do fix issues, call it a second edition and get called out for it.

Avoid both by not re-printing a game ever again and get called out for it

I guess the safest way forward is to not ever print a wargame for fear of all of the above.
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winheath wrote:
I have decided to no longer buy games from GMT. Concerns over a decade were recently brought to a head by the company's decision to publish a second edition of Wing Leader; Victories and an American Revolution triple pack. I am a big fan of LBW's games but to bring out a revised edition after only two years and expect me to pay around £30 for an update kit is simply not right. LBW may protest that the First Edition is still perfectly playable but that misses the point. With the American Revolution game GMT are not even offering an update kit and yet the new edition offers mounted maps, new scenarios and updated counters. I buy games from other publishers like Legion, Hexasim, OSG and the Jours de Gloire series and they don't do this. I feel I can no longer trust GMT not to bring out an improved edition of any game they publish and frankly I'm fed up with it.


I see your point, but the games you state are perfectly playable (with solved errata issues, and updated rules, as near all wargames).
You can call these new editions, "deluxe" "improved" or whatever you want, but your games are playable.

In my case I´ve decided to not buy first print runs of GMT bestsellers because the annoying erratas (cards, maps, tables). But there is a risk sometimes if it there is gonna be ,or not, a reprint.
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Cameron Taylor
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What's the alternative? Never have revised components and/or rules?

I'd rather deal with the ridiculous amount of (optional) replacement counters from the Next War series released every new game and supplement than do without them.
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
Don't fix known issues in a re-print and get called out for it.

I think that FoF 2nd edition has the winning shot: Don't fix know issues and add some more!
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kevin halloran
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
winheath wrote:
I buy games from other publishers like Legion, Hexasim, OSG and the Jours de Gloire series and they don't do this.


Don't fix known issues in a re-print and get called out for it.

Do fix issues, call it a second edition and get called out for it.

Avoid both by not re-printing a game ever again and get called out for it

I guess the safest way forward is to not ever print a wargame for fear of all of the above.


Eddy, some fair points but the specific issues here are, firstly, the time scale in the case of WLV and that in both cases GMT are not simply "fixing issues" - which could have been done by Living Rules, free issues of replacement counters and downloadable new scenarios - but are offering improvements which in my opinion unfairly disadvantage buyers of the original editions. If you disagree, fine.
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Ivor Bolakov
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I feel I can no longer trust GMT not to bring out an improved edition of any game they publish and frankly I'm fed up with it.


This is silly. You can't sell your previous editions to help fund the new ones? You can't wait for a second edition instead of pouncing on the first?

Come on. Let's be a little more mature about this, eh. Your first edition games are not made worse by the existence of a second edition.
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OhBollox wrote:
Come on. Let's be a little more mature about this, eh.
You mean like when you make changes to a game but you don't even tell to your 1st edition buyers like Churchill?
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Ben Bosmans
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I think the OP has a point on Wing Leader. Rules are changed like underwear in that game and early adapters are now confronted with different rule books with different charts and very fundamental changes.

As a result I waited for yet a new expansion for WL Blitz with yet newer rules ... and a full Campaign map ... GMT simply forgot to PRINT.

Forgetting to print the Campaign map and shipping a Campaign expansion is just another sign.

But other games suffer as well. All first edition COIN games for example have errata as extensive and long as some normal rule books and that's very annoying.

The only solution is to wait for a second or even third edition to have the components straightened out, but then we talk over 3'years waiting times.

GMT is a small company compared to FFG, but it is a giant publishing wargames, so I think the OP has some points to demand a bit more coordination and planning.

Defending a company looks cool, but not when this changing of components between editions is done in a systematic manner, than it is called a system to let the fans buy yet another game to put on shelves (as most historical wargames are seldom played any way).





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Lee Brimmicombe-Wood
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winheath wrote:
I am a big fan of LBW's games but to bring out a revised edition after only two years and expect me to pay around £30 for an update kit is simply not right. LBW may protest that the First Edition is still perfectly playable but that misses the point.


Have I missed the point, Kevin?

Firstly, I honestly recommend you don't buy the update kit. There's no need for you to spend more money on the game. Enjoy the one you have in your hands. It's not broken.

Secondly, I'm the guy who has invested four years in the project and it's taken that time to discover all the things I didn't nail the first time, for which I take the blame. I had several options for the reprint and one of those was to change nothing. However, I found that unsatisfying, and I'm going for a fix. I knew this was going to dismay some and I'd burn a lot if not all the goodwill people have towards me. I'm happy to pay that price because I believe in the game.

Thing is, the game as printed really is fine. It's not quite the perfected game that I'm aiming for, but you should play it and enjoy it and spend not one more penny on the game. Meanwhile I'll go off and refine my baby.

Everybody wins!
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Jim F
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I'm a big fan of GMT. A big chunk of my collection is from them, but I have to admit to rolling my eyes at news of the WLV 2nd Edition.

However, to stop buying GMT games seems an overreaction to me and cutting off your nose to spite your face. WLV is perfectly playable as is.
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kevin halloran
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OhBollox wrote:
Quote:
I feel I can no longer trust GMT not to bring out an improved edition of any game they publish and frankly I'm fed up with it.


This is silly. You can't sell your previous editions to help fund the new ones? You can't wait for a second edition instead of pouncing on the first?

Come on. Let's be a little more mature about this, eh. Your first edition games are not made worse by the existence of a second edition.


Ivor, I don't think it's helpful to describe opinions you disagree with as "silly". Your logic here is I feel bizarre. I should sell my games to but the new edition? Really. And purchasers of original editions are "impatient pouncers" who get what they deserve. Really? So we should help out publishers and designers by NOT buying games in the sure and certain knowledge an improved version will soon appear?

You also state that my first editions are not made worse by the appearance of second editions. Rubbish. A better guide than your flawed subjective opinion is MONEY. Not because money should be the prime concern or even an important concern of the game buyer but simply that the price people will pay for an item is a better guide to perceived value than your opinion. If you seriously think people will pay as much for a copy of the first editions as for the improved second editions you clearly do not buy and sell many wargames. The simple fact is I paid around £60 for WLV only a few months ago and am now being offered an update kit at perhaps £30-40 delivered. The two combined will not have a higher value than the second edition at say £60 and may even have a lower value. I cannot see how you can claim buyers of the first edition are not disadvantaged?
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J.L. Robert
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I have to go to sleep (2am, locally). But I can't wait to get back to this tomorrow to see the circling of the wagons that's a hallmark of every thread that's critical of GMT.
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kevin halloran
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pilotofficerprune wrote:
winheath wrote:
I am a big fan of LBW's games but to bring out a revised edition after only two years and expect me to pay around £30 for an update kit is simply not right. LBW may protest that the First Edition is still perfectly playable but that misses the point.


Have I missed the point, Kevin?

Firstly, I honestly recommend you don't buy the update kit. There's no need for you to spend more money on the game. Enjoy the one you have in your hands. It's not broken.

Secondly, I'm the guy who has invested four years in the project and it's taken that time to discover all the things I didn't nail the first time, for which I take the blame. I had several options for the reprint and one of those was to change nothing. However, I found that unsatisfying, and I'm going for a fix. I knew this was going to dismay some and I'd burn a lot if not all the goodwill people have towards me. I'm happy to pay that price because I believe in the game.

Thing is, the game as printed really is fine. It's not quite the perfected game that I'm aiming for, but you should play it and enjoy it and spend not one more penny on the game. Meanwhile I'll go off and refine my baby.

Everybody wins!


Lee, everybody does not win. For my sins as well as a wargamer I am a collector. I have to have either the update kit or the second edition. So the point made by you and Jim F that the game is "perfectly playable" is an irrelevance to me. My problem I know but it's becoming the norm with GMT.
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Ben Bosmans
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pilotofficerprune wrote:
winheath wrote:
I am a big fan of LBW's games but to bring out a revised edition after only two years and expect me to pay around £30 for an update kit is simply not right. LBW may protest that the First Edition is still perfectly playable but that misses the point.


Have I missed the point, Kevin?

Firstly, I honestly recommend you don't buy the update kit. There's no need for you to spend more money on the game. Enjoy the one you have in your hands. It's not broken.

Secondly, I'm the guy who has invested four years in the project and it's taken that time to discover all the things I didn't nail the first time, for which I take the blame. I had several options for the reprint and one of those was to change nothing. However, I found that unsatisfying, and I'm going for a fix. I knew this was going to dismay some and I'd burn a lot if not all the goodwill people have towards me. I'm happy to pay that price because I believe in the game.

Thing is, the game as printed really is fine. It's not quite the perfected game that I'm aiming for, but you should play it and enjoy it and spend not one more penny on the game. Meanwhile I'll go off and refine my baby.

Everybody wins!


This is not a personal attack Lee. I love WL. But as a fan you do need to understand that changing rules and components are annoying to fans also.

But my remarks are mostly addressed at GMT. It seems that has become a system at GMT to have some rather fundamental changes between editions ... and STILL do misprints.

Is this to sell more editions to the hardcore fans ?

Well I can understand a new edition for a game every decade (see FFG and other publishers) but not every 2 years.
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Eddy Sterckx
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J.L.Robert wrote:
I have to go to sleep (2am, locally). But I can't wait to get back to this tomorrow to see the circling of the wagons that's a hallmark of every thread that's critical of GMT.


I've been plenty critical of GMT when they deserved it - like in the stupid printing errors that were still in the second print run of Thunder Alley - but complaining because a company actually makes a better reprint/second edition is a bit silly.

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Cameron Taylor
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eddy_sterckx wrote:
I've been plenty critical of GMT when they deserved it - like in the stupid printing errors that were still in the second print run of Thunder Alley - but complaining because a company actually makes a better reprint/second edition is a bit silly.



*spits out tea* "What?! They made it better?! Those swine!" arrrh
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Ben Bosmans
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SeriousCat wrote:
eddy_sterckx wrote:
I've been plenty critical of GMT when they deserved it - like in the stupid printing errors that were still in the second print run of Thunder Alley - but complaining because a company actually makes a better reprint/second edition is a bit silly.



*spits out tea* "What?! They made it better?! Those swine!" arrrh


So what would you do as a fan ?

Stick with the worse edition (no one will play) or buy a new copy after 2 years ?

If I were a hardcore fan I would just throw the old away and buy the new "better" one IF the components were printed correctly btw...
 
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What would make the original poster most happy? If GMT never reprinted any of its games so its value for collectors stays high? That seems rather.... selfish? Not clear to me why GMT should indulge such desires.

As a contrary thought experiment, if people knew that the designer of a game has learned from mistake and improved it in every way... but refuses to publish the new version because it could offend buyers who bought it the first time... would that seem even remotely normal to anyone?
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Ben Bosmans
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Order wrote:
Just for understanding, what would make the original poster most happy? If GMT never reprinted any of its games so its value for collectors stays high? That seems rather.... selfish?


The problem with these reactions is that this view s from the point of GMT, not from the point of the buyer of the first edition.

Lesson learned stay away from first editions and hope for a non error reprint (which btw is far from a certainty too).

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Lee Brimmicombe-Wood
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Ben_Bos wrote:
But as a fan you do need to understand that changing rules and components are annoying to fans also.


I understand it's annoying. But what would you have me do? What do you want?
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Ben_Bos wrote:
Order wrote:
Just for understanding, what would make the original poster most happy? If GMT never reprinted any of its games so its value for collectors stays high? That seems rather.... selfish?


The problem with these reactions is that this view s from the point of GMT, not from the point of the buyer of the first edition.

Lesson learned stay away from first editions and hope for a non error reprint (which btw is far from a certainty too).



It is not GMT's view, it is the view of everybody who does not own a first edition but wants to play the game. And everybody who wants to play the game in a better way. So... almost everybody.

Does it annoy me as a collector that games get republished and devalue my current collection. Certainly, has happened to me several times. But it should be pretty easy to see that this sort of reasoning should not drive the decisions of a company producing games (unlike one producing purely collectable trinkets, I suppose). No promise was ever made to not republish or improve, that is simply not a legitimate expectation to have.
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Thierry Michel
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A game is not a store of value, it's simply meant to be played. I don't know that GMT 'expects' people to buy upgrades, though I did it for one game (Won by the Sword), it's anyone's choice.
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Everyone has a right to their own views on this, but GMT will be here if you decide to change your mind. I do understand where your coming from, but GMT has a right to offer products how they want and we as consumers have a right to say yes I will buy it or no I will not. Which ever way the dollars flow will determine the actions of most companies, they are not non-profit organizations. They have to do what's best for them based on what their consumers will support, obviously GMT thinks that consumers will support what they are offering, if they don't they will change. Best of luck, but I'll continue to support GMT.
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Ben Bosmans
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pilotofficerprune wrote:
Ben_Bos wrote:
But as a fan you do need to understand that changing rules and components are annoying to fans also.


I understand it's annoying. But what would you have me do? What do you want?


I wanted to restart playing with the Blitz Campaign Lee with the newest rules, I posted this already in the WL forum.

But GMT forgot to print the Campaign map so we will just have to wait.

I played WL around 35 times in its first edition, you can look that up. I curiously stopped playing with the new rules included with WL2 the later years.

So what happened ? I obviously felt uncomfortable with new rules and I am more interested in the early war period - as I mentioned to you. So my plan was to reboot with the early war Blitz expansion.

Now I see that WL1 gets a reboot too ...

MY view on this is that we should have not that many changes and stay within the same format of the first rule book.

But it is your game of course.

The problem is that this is also happening with other GMT games like COIN etc... So it seems to become a system.

A system where the first buyers are always put in a dilemma.

It has nothing to do with "value". I don't care about collectors value. I try to play my games. Simple.

In this case and many others first edition buyers should have waited. BUT if we weren't there at launch, the game would not have launched either...

So to all those who defend GMT on this: next time you do the first edition purchases.

I think that is the sentiment the OP is talking about.



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