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Subject: Removal of track after completion of route rss

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Jack K
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Last night we played this for the first time.

Several times in the game we ran into a situation where someone declared a regional route complete and not only could they complete it using their own track only, but they could have made it using other people's track too.

The first time this had come up, a couple of had asked the owner of the game if, in this situation, we were required to remove our track as if we had "completed" this route with our own track (which, really, we had). We were told "yes", and so we played accordingly. Late in the game, the owner ran into this situation and insisted that they could pay cubes during the removal phase to say that they were counting it as complete partially over someone else's track, thereby preserving several tracks of their own.

Of course, we reminded them that they had told us differently earlier and so, after some debate, they played it that way because everyone else had. I don't think that this affected the outcome of the game (I won in spite of pulling track as instructed) but I'd really like to know what the intent is in the rules...

(Let me stress that there was no intent to cheat by this person - they had forgotten that they had told us we had to play it this way and, upon re-reading much later, interpreted the rule differently)

The rules, as read to me (and forgive me but I don't have a copy to quote), stated simply that you could use other players track to "complete" a route. That sounds like, if you want to save time or can't quite get to a place you want to, you can count it as complete by paying one cube to other players for each piece of your track you use to "complete" it. This says nothing about using other people's track during removal post-completion, only about completing it in the first place.

This made us feel that the fact that it had been completed with your own track meant that you had to remove your own track and, as we had been told this earlier in the game, when we asked this specific question, we were at least comfortable in making them play to the rule as we had been told earlier.

As I think about it, it would make sense to play it either such that you completed with your own track, so you remove your own track (as we did) or you declare it complete using someone else's track (even though you may have track on the board completing it yourself) and pay them immediately and then remove as if you had to use their track to complete it (I'm a little undecided about if you should have to pay them during removal too, although I could see that) but what makes no sense to me at all is to declare it complete with your own track, and then decide you're paying someone during removal.

In the end, I have no doubt that we were correct in making that person play by the rules as explained to us early in the game - I'd just like us to get it right the next time...

Thanks!

 
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Mark Levine
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In the rules for entry waivers, it refers to being "unable or unwilling to use your own track" to complete a regional/passenger card, which implies that you may pay an opponent to use their track even if it could be avoided by using your own track.

I don't really understand the separation you are putting between completing a card and removing the track - as part of scoring a completed route, you remove the track. It doesn't matter at all that you could both complete it with and without anyone's rails - all that matters is that you decide to either pay them (just once), or remove the track.


Looking at these rules more closely, there is some interesting phrasing I hadn't noticed before - "Remove the minimum number of Track Segments required to connect all of the cities listed on the card. You cannot choose to take more." - I'd thought the rule was just that you couldn't remove rail not on the route, not that you had to make the shortest route. Also, I imagine that this is determined after you choose to pay entry waivers, and isn't supposed to be interpreted such that you must pay for rails to minimize the number of rails you remove.
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Jack K
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Thanks for the response, Mark.

KoolKow wrote:
In the rules for entry waivers, it refers to being "unable or unwilling to use your own track" to complete a regional/passenger card, which implies that you may pay an opponent to use their track even if it could be avoided by using your own track.

I don't really understand the separation you are putting between completing a card and removing the track - as part of scoring a completed route, you remove the track. It doesn't matter at all that you could both complete it with and without anyone's rails - all that matters is that you decide to either pay them (just once), or remove the track.


That depends upon if you view completion of the route and subsequent removal of track as "atomic" or not. It is all "one single thing" or is the removal a consequence immediately following the completion (two separate steps where one is required after the other).

The real issue last night was, of course, us being told one thing early in the game, and playing it that way throughout until the end, when someone tried to do it the other way...

Quote:
Looking at these rules more closely, there is some interesting phrasing I hadn't noticed before - "Remove the minimum number of Track Segments required to connect all of the cities listed on the card. You cannot choose to take more." - I'd thought the rule was just that you couldn't remove rail not on the route, not that you had to make the shortest route. Also, I imagine that this is determined after you choose to pay entry waivers, and isn't supposed to be interpreted such that you must pay for rails to minimize the number of rails you remove.


 
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Mark Levine
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anglotiger wrote:
Thanks for the response, Mark.

KoolKow wrote:
In the rules for entry waivers, it refers to being "unable or unwilling to use your own track" to complete a regional/passenger card, which implies that you may pay an opponent to use their track even if it could be avoided by using your own track.

I don't really understand the separation you are putting between completing a card and removing the track - as part of scoring a completed route, you remove the track. It doesn't matter at all that you could both complete it with and without anyone's rails - all that matters is that you decide to either pay them (just once), or remove the track.


That depends upon if you view completion of the route and subsequent removal of track as "atomic" or not. It is all "one single thing" or is the removal a consequence immediately following the completion (two separate steps where one is required after the other).

The real issue last night was, of course, us being told one thing early in the game, and playing it that way throughout until the end, when someone tried to do it the other way...



In the rules, the action is called "Completing a Regional Card" and lists multiple steps that you take when you do so, with the last one being the removal of track. Before it lists the steps, it says you complete a card when all the cities on it are connected by your contigious track segements (the Entry Waiver rules are later).

It seems atomic to me, but it also doesn't seem to make of a difference anyway.
 
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Jeff Horger
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You may choose whatever route you want to complete a card if you have multiple choices. All yours or partially your opponent's. If you use your own track the route must be the shortest possible to connect the cities. If you use your opponent's track you may go as you see fit and desire to spend.
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