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Subject: Port Bonus Tile: Price Manipulation rss

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Matias P
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In the rules it states "Manipulate the price of one Good by three steps on the Market before trading this Good."
That means it's not possible to use this port in a turn where I have no intentions of buying or selling, only to manipulate the market to harm other players, right?

- Does this mean I can use this Port ONLY in a turn where I take the "Trade" action?
OR
- Is it also possible to use this Port in a turn where I play an "Expand" action, using the Neighborhood Bonus to buy a good? (assuming I used the Port at the beginning of that turn).

Thanks!

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Doug Stewart
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You may use any port tile as an additional action on any of your turns after you are neighboring (or within reach) of said port.

Yes to both of your scenarios, IMHO.
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Matias P
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zamoose wrote:
You may use any port tile as an additional action on any of your turns after you are neighboring (or within reach) of said port.

Yes to both of your scenarios, IMHO.


Actually, there are some ports you CAN'T use in any turn. For example, you couldn't get Meat from a Port in a turn when you're not fulfilling a contract. And I think you CAN'T manipulate the price of a good in a turn when you don't have intentions of buying/selling that good... at least that's what I understand from the rules?
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Doug Stewart
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MaToMaStEr wrote:
zamoose wrote:
You may use any port tile as an additional action on any of your turns after you are neighboring (or within reach) of said port.

Yes to both of your scenarios, IMHO.


Actually, there are some ports you CAN'T use in any turn. For example, you couldn't get Meat from a Port in a turn when you're not fulfilling a contract. And I think you CAN'T manipulate the price of a good in a turn when you don't have intentions of buying that good... at least that's what I understand from the rules?


You may have a point regarding the meat port. I disagree with the manipulation port, though.
 
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brian
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zamoose wrote:
MaToMaStEr wrote:
zamoose wrote:
You may use any port tile as an additional action on any of your turns after you are neighboring (or within reach) of said port.

Yes to both of your scenarios, IMHO.


Actually, there are some ports you CAN'T use in any turn. For example, you couldn't get Meat from a Port in a turn when you're not fulfilling a contract. And I think you CAN'T manipulate the price of a good in a turn when you don't have intentions of buying that good... at least that's what I understand from the rules?


You may have a point regarding the meat port. I disagree with the manipulation port, though.

The rules state you manipulate a good before trading in it. So you couldn't just manipulate to manipulate. You'd actually have to take a trade action or neighborhood bonus. Furthermore, it would be the good you are trading in and not just any good of your choice while trading something else.

Meat also says when fulfilling an contract, just like you can't slaughter an animal whenever you like, it must be during the fulfillment of a contract.
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alan beaumont
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MaToMaStEr wrote:
zamoose wrote:
You may use any port tile as an additional action on any of your turns after you are neighboring (or within reach) of said port.
Actually, there are some ports you CAN'T use in any turn. For example, you couldn't get Meat from a Port in a turn when you're not fulfilling a contract. And I think you CAN'T manipulate the price of a good in a turn when you don't have intentions of buying that good... at least that's what I understand from the rules?
I agree with this interpretation, because the price manipulation has to be '...before trading this good.' That's a condition of using the bonus, or why else mention it?
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Juma Al-JouJou
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It doesnt matter if you do trade as your main action or through the neighborhood bonus trade action. But you have to trade the specific good after you manipulated its price.

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Álvaro Sampaio
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Just to be sure of the correct rule and avoid some timing mistakes:
Is it legal to build next to someone's structure; use the Port free action to lower the price 3 steps and than, with the neighborhood bonus buy 3 specific goods with discount?
 
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alan beaumont
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dralvaro wrote:
Just to be sure of the correct rule and avoid some timing mistakes:
Is it legal to build next to someone's structure; use the Port free action to lower the price 3 steps and than, with the neighborhood bonus buy 3 specific goods with discount?
No. Although both actions take place after the Expand action it specifies 'The Neighbourhood bonus can only be used immediately after expanding' (p5) so, although the Port Bonus can be used 'immediately' and 'in addition to whatever Action they perform' doing so first means that the Neighbourhood bonus hasn't been taken immediately and the chance is therefore lost.
 
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James Patterson
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misteralan wrote:
dralvaro wrote:
Just to be sure of the correct rule and avoid some timing mistakes:
Is it legal to build next to someone's structure; use the Port free action to lower the price 3 steps and than, with the neighborhood bonus buy 3 specific goods with discount?
No. Although both actions take place after the Expand action it specifies 'The Neighbourhood bonus can only be used immediately after expanding' (p5) so, although the Port Bonus can be used 'immediately' and 'in addition to whatever Action they perform' doing so first means that the Neighbourhood bonus hasn't been taken immediately and the chance is therefore lost.


I must disagree with this interpretation because of Juma's comment above that the port tile can be used either through "your main action or through the neighborhood bonus trade action". He is the designer, after all. A sequence of simultaneous immediate effects seems to be the intent here. You expand and then, as part of using the neighbor bonus to trade, you use the port tile to manipulate the price of the good you are buying.
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alan beaumont
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Pattersonclan wrote:
misteralan wrote:
dralvaro wrote:
Just to be sure of the correct rule and avoid some timing mistakes:
Is it legal to build next to someone's structure; use the Port free action to lower the price 3 steps and than, with the neighborhood bonus buy 3 specific goods with discount?
No. Although both actions take place after the Expand action it specifies 'The Neighbourhood bonus can only be used immediately after expanding' (p5) so, although the Port Bonus can be used 'immediately' and 'in addition to whatever Action they perform' doing so first means that the Neighbourhood bonus hasn't been taken immediately and the chance is therefore lost.


I must disagree with this interpretation because of Juma's comment above that the port tile can be used either through "your main action or through the neighborhood bonus trade action". He is the designer, after all. A sequence of simultaneous immediate effects seems to be the intent here. You expand and then, as part of using the neighbor bonus to trade, you use the port tile to manipulate the price of the good you are buying.
He's going to have to change the wording of the rules then because, assuming that is the correct answer, the neighbourhood bonus hasn't been exercised immediately, despite that being a condition of using it.

This is only an issue if the Port Bonus only became possible due to the current Expand Action. If the port was already in range I would agree that you can manipulate the price, Expand and then take the Neighbourhood bonus(es).
 
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Álvaro Sampaio
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misteralan wrote:
Pattersonclan wrote:
misteralan wrote:
dralvaro wrote:
Just to be sure of the correct rule and avoid some timing mistakes:
Is it legal to build next to someone's structure; use the Port free action to lower the price 3 steps and than, with the neighborhood bonus buy 3 specific goods with discount?
No. Although both actions take place after the Expand action it specifies 'The Neighbourhood bonus can only be used immediately after expanding' (p5) so, although the Port Bonus can be used 'immediately' and 'in addition to whatever Action they perform' doing so first means that the Neighbourhood bonus hasn't been taken immediately and the chance is therefore lost.


I must disagree with this interpretation because of Juma's comment above that the port tile can be used either through "your main action or through the neighborhood bonus trade action". He is the designer, after all. A sequence of simultaneous immediate effects seems to be the intent here. You expand and then, as part of using the neighbor bonus to trade, you use the port tile to manipulate the price of the good you are buying.
He's going to have to change the wording of the rules then because, assuming that is the correct answer, the neighbourhood bonus hasn't been exercised immediately, despite that being a condition of using it.

This is only an issue if the Port Bonus only became possible due to the current Expand Action. If the port was already in range I would agree that you can manipulate the price, Expand and then take the Neighbourhood bonus(es).


It is a simples question actually.

"Is it legal to interrupt the course of an action to apply effects caused by the action itself or to use free actions?"

Or

"Every action must be fully completed before other effects take part?"


I think that 1 is right, and that rule confusion exists because in other euro like games that we play, every action have to be "full" and the effects of the action and/or free actions have to be applied before or after the action, never during the action. Probably due to the chain reactions possible in Clans of Caledonia, you can perform your turn in any order, once the first action, usually build or complete a contract, were done.
 
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alan beaumont
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dralvaro wrote:
It is a simples question actually.

"Is it legal to interrupt the course of an action to apply effects caused by the action itself or to use free actions?"

Or

"Every action must be fully completed before other effects take part?"


I think that 1 is right, and that rule confusion exists because in other euro like games that we play, every action have to be "full" and the effects of the action and/or free actions have to be applied before or after the action, never during the action. Probably due to the chain reactions possible in Clans of Caledonia, you can perform your turn in any order, once the first action, usually build or complete a contract, were done.
I'd argue against 1. If 1 is correct it becomes possible, for example, to fund an expansion with the Port Bonus of £10, to build into range of that port, when you couldn't afford it in advance.

If that is possible it needs to be clearly stated. In Brass: Birmingham you need to be connected to a coal supply to build rail links and it is explicitly stated that the links being built can themselves create that connection.
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Jimmy Hensel
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I may be wrong, but I seem to recall Juma stating in the forums that if there are multiple immediate effects to perform as a result of an action, the player taking the action can choose the order of resolution.
 
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Mitch Harding
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misteralan wrote:
dralvaro wrote:
"Is it legal to interrupt the course of an action to apply effects caused by the action itself or to use free actions?"

Or

"Every action must be fully completed before other effects take part?"
I'd argue against 1. If 1 is correct it becomes possible, for example, to fund an expansion with the Port Bonus of £10, to build into range of that port, when you couldn't afford it in advance.

I intended to respond arguing against this example, but after consulting the rules I think misteralan is right.

The expand action first tells you to place the unit, then tells you to pay for it. The port bonus says it's usable when the player has a unit in shipping range. So the port requirement is met as soon as the unit is placed, even before it is paid for. If we're allowed to "inject" port bonus tiles into actions before they are completed, then I think the example given would indeed be legal -- you could expand into a space that you could only afford by taking the port bonus from the port that your newly-placed unit is now in range of.

I hope Juma will clarify whether or not this is intended to be permitted.
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alan beaumont
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mitcharf wrote:
misteralan wrote:
dralvaro wrote:
"Is it legal to interrupt the course of an action to apply effects caused by the action itself or to use free actions?"

Or

"Every action must be fully completed before other effects take part?"
I'd argue against 1. If 1 is correct it becomes possible, for example, to fund an expansion with the Port Bonus of £10, to build into range of that port, when you couldn't afford it in advance.

I intended to respond arguing against this example, but after consulting the rules I think misteralan is right.

The expand action first tells you to place the unit, then tells you to pay for it. The port bonus says it's usable when the player has a unit in shipping range. So the port requirement is met as soon as the unit is placed, even before it is paid for. If we're allowed to "inject" port bonus tiles into actions before they are completed, then I think the example given would indeed be legal -- you could expand into a space that you could only afford by taking the port bonus from the port that your newly-placed unit is now in range of.

I hope Juma will clarify whether or not this is intended to be permitted.
I'd be equally happy for you to be correct, so long as we do arrive at clarity. meeple
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Juma Al-JouJou
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1) In order to use a port tile you need to be already in reach of it. You are not allowed to place a unit, then use the port tile to finance the cost of placing the unit.

2) The word "immediately" is meant to stress that the neighborhood bonus cannot be used later and that it is only a one-time bonus. The building bonus must also be used "immediately" after expanding. If you happen to expand your 4th bakery neighboring another players distillery, you could only use either the building bonus or the neighborhood bonus if you interprete the word "immediately" very strictly. But that was NOT intended. In such a situation you can simply choose if you first use the building bonus or the neighborhood bonus but you can use both of course. Thus, maybe "immediately" should be replaced by "in the same turn" for both the building bonus and the neighborhood bonus.

Thus, I would allow someone to place a unit, pay for the unit through which they get into reach of the price manipulation port tile, then manipulate the price and use the neighborhood bonus. At the moment I can't see any unintended odd effects of this ruling.
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alan beaumont
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Innovatormentor wrote:
1) In order to use a port tile you need to be already in reach of it. You are not allowed to place a unit, then use the port tile to finance the cost of placing the unit.

2) The word "immediately" is meant to stress that the neighborhood bonus cannot be used later and that it is only a one-time bonus. The building bonus must also be used "immediately" after expanding. If you happen to expand your 4th bakery neighboring another players distillery, you could only use either the building bonus or the neighborhood bonus if you interprete the word "immediately" very strictly. But that was NOT intended. In such a situation you can simply choose if you first use the building bonus or the neighborhood bonus but you can use both of course. Thus, maybe "immediately" should be replaced by "in the same turn" for both the building bonus and the neighborhood bonus.

Thus, I would allow someone to place a unit, pay for the unit through which they get into reach of the price manipulation port tile, then manipulate the price and use the neighborhood bonus. At the moment I can't see any unintended odd effects of this ruling.
It would have been easier to understand the sequence intended if the Expand rule didn't have the unit placement made apparently prior to paying for it, when a conventional sequence is pay, then place. Adding in a Port market manipulation interrupt to another 'immediate' effect and the confusion is understandable.

I think I've been playing the 'immediate' wrong, given that it appeared you would have to pick only one, but that aside I don't remember other problems.

If you are going to reword this I suggest you say something like 'subsequently perform a free [whatever] Action in your turn' for each newly triggered possibility, simply to show they occur after the Expand placement.

You might also want to give some thought to the rule that 'during the Action Phase each player takes exactly one Action per turn' (p4) which is simply inaccurate as we can see. Either that or change the terminology for these extra 'actions'.

Good game though. meeple

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