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Subject: Regime Change Republic into King? rss

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Geoff Speare
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If you strawman one of your Republics, will it flip back into Kingship?
 
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Christopher Wood
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Nothing in the rules allows that.
I stand corrected!
Well no wait, the post below doesn't say Republic into Kingdom ...?
 
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Nicholas
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Yes.

Quote:
Own Empire. Except in campaigns (see next bullet), if the Empire is in your own Tableau, flip it to its other side. Discard any Queens and Vassals (along with their Tokens) but retain all Tokens on the Empire. If it was a Vassal, move it to your outermost Tableau position as a Republic, rightmost or leftmost depending on if it is east or west. Successfully attacking your own Empire is called a strawman regime change, and is the only way to create Republics other than voting.
Campaign Regime Change. If the Regime Change is caused by a victorious campaign (F9), the winning Empire becomes a Suzerain and the loser its Vassal.

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christopherwood wrote:
...
Well no wait, the post below doesn't say Republic into Kingdom ...?


It's the "flip it to its other side" portion that matters here. You can also check the table on the back of the rulebook - under Battle Resolution for a Strawman battle, you flip the card to the other side.

The one exception is if the battle type is a Campaign - kings don't accept Republics as a vassal.
 
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Christopher Wood
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I sure would like clarified wording for that in the Living Rules. It sounds like you're right tho.
 
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Nicholas
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How would you clarify that? The wording is absolutely clear, no ambiguity whatsoever.
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Christopher Wood
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It's not that the wording is ambiguous. It's that the rules say "flip to Republic" in five different places, and not once do they say explicitly "flip to Kingdom." It's the sort of thing that is easily misunderstood by players like, say, me ... or the OP. There's plenty of extra notes throughout the rules. A note about this might help people overcome some confusion or doubt.

The wording is slightly more explicit in the battle resolution table.

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Geoff Speare
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It's the difference between accurate rules and helpful rules. Not the only time this happens in Phil's rules.

(I assumed the answer was yes from a close read but wanted to be sure as sometimes intent doesn't match wording.)
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Phil Eklund
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galfridus wrote:
If you strawman one of your Republics, will it flip back into Kingship?


Yes.

In the Living Rules glossary for Regime Change, I added the part in red to make this clear:

Own Empire. Except in campaigns (see next bullet), if the Empire is in your own Tableau, flip it to its other side (either Kingdom to Republic, or Republic to Kingdom). Discard any Queens and Vassals (along with their Tokens) but retain all Tokens on the Empire. If it was a Vassal, move it to your outermost Tableau position as a Republic, rightmost or leftmost depending on if it is east or west. Successfully attacking your own Empire is called a strawman regime change, and is the only way to create Republics other than voting.
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Christopher Wood
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Just noticed a sixth instance of the King > Republic wording:
Quote:
Strawman. If you play a one-shot or an Op against your own cards or Tokens, this is called a strawman. This play is sometimes useful to gain enough Repressed Tokens to perform a victorious Civil War, or to overthrow your own King to create a Republic.
In fact the strawman works either way, iiuc? So I'd call that wording "concise and unambiguous, but misleading." Maybe I'll suggest a change on the Living Rules.
 
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Rich James
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christopherwood wrote:

Just noticed a sixth instance of the King > Republic wording:
Quote:
Strawman. If you play a one-shot or an Op against your own cards or Tokens, this is called a strawman. This play is sometimes useful to gain enough Repressed Tokens to perform a victorious Civil War, or to overthrow your own King to create a Republic.
In fact the strawman works either way, iiuc? So I'd call that wording "concise and unambiguous, but misleading." Maybe I'll suggest a change on the Living Rules.

Since it possibly could mislead, it would be better to simply eliminate the part I bolded above. That was just commentary on the usefulness of the strawman play, not the definition of the term per se.
 
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I expect that the idea was that one could use Campaign to convert one of ones Republics to a Kingdom, but it is harder to go the other way (hence motivating the strawman one-shots).
 
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Rex Stites
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christopherwood wrote:

Just noticed a sixth instance of the King > Republic wording:
Quote:
Strawman. If you play a one-shot or an Op against your own cards or Tokens, this is called a strawman. This play is sometimes useful to gain enough Repressed Tokens to perform a victorious Civil War, or to overthrow your own King to create a Republic.
In fact the strawman works either way, iiuc? So I'd call that wording "concise and unambiguous, but misleading." Maybe I'll suggest a change on the Living Rules.


I'm not sure that it's misleading. It's a statement of when the maneuver is more useful--i.e., a strategy tip. In most situations, changing a king into a republic is more desirable than vice versa.
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Christopher Wood
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I'm not sure about "most situations."
It's desirable toward the Renaissance victory.
It's undesirable toward the Imperial victory.
It changes Campaign ops to Vote and/or Commerce ops, a trade off depending on your approach, tactics, and situation.

I suspect the reason for the wording balance favoring King > Republic rather than Republic > King is the underlying philosophy that democracy is "enlightened" and feudalism is "festering."
 
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christopherwood wrote:
I suspect the reason for the wording balance favoring King > Republic rather than Republic > King is the underlying philosophy that democracy is "enlightened" and feudalism is "festering."

I doubt that Phil lets his personal philosophy dictate such things.

As I suggested earlier, it's likely emphasized here to distinguish it from other regime changes (e.g., Campaign) that tend to push things towards kingdoms.
 
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Christopher Wood
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Consciously or unconsciously, the philosophy behind Pax Ren is evident.

(I've seen quite a few people gripe & moan about it, who disagree with it. Fwiw I have no problem with it. Pax Ren after all is my #1 favorite game of all time, the only such game ever to hold that opinion. In fact I'm playing the damn thing right now so I'm hardly bashing the game or the guy[s] behind it [nod to Matt].)

The non-evidence of the Republic > Kingdom mechanism is the whole origin of this thread. Is that conscious or unconscious on Phil's part? I dunno.

(Again, imho no problem either way, just want to clarify the game rules.)
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Rex Stites
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christopherwood wrote:
I'm not sure about "most situations."
It's desirable toward the Renaissance victory.
It's undesirable toward the Imperial victory.
It changes Campaign ops to Vote and/or Commerce ops, a trade off depending on your approach, tactics, and situation.

I suspect the reason for the wording balance favoring King > Republic rather than Republic > King is the underlying philosophy that democracy is "enlightened" and feudalism is "festering."


Given that Kings are the default state and Republics require player action to create them, I think that it is likely more beneficial to people reading the rules/learning the game to have this pointed, especially since the only way of creating a republic is through a strawman play.
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rstites25 wrote:
..., especially since the only way of creating a republic is through a strawman play.


Huh! I had thought that using a Vote operation would always result in a Republic, even if used to gain control of an Empire from someone else's tableau.

Seems like I was wrong though - the Empire needs to be in your tableau to flip, otherwise a vote just brings it under your control in the same state (Empire/Republic) as it was previously as an Empire.
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oneiric wrote:
...otherwise a vote just brings it under your control in the same state (Empire/Republic) as it was previously.


That's incorrect.
 
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Nicholas M wrote:
oneiric wrote:
...otherwise a vote just brings it under your control in the same state (Empire/Republic) as it was previously.

That's incorrect.

Right.

Vote in your tableau results in a Republic.

Vote in an opponent's tableau results in a Kingdom.
 
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Yes, thanks for the correction.

I had a hard time squaring this from a thematic standpoint. How does a Republic vote to install a King? Regardless, it's clear in the glossary under Regime Change... just wasn't clear in my mind.

Obviously, the only way to get over the mental hurdle is to play more often!
 
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J Doe
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So, are there any circumstances such that you take a Republic empire from an opponent and put it in your tableau in the same Republic state? Or, if you ever take an empire from an opponent will it always come to your tableau as a kingdom (independent of the whether it was Kingdom/Republic in your opponent's tableau)?
 
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PlayerZ wrote:
So, are there any circumstances such that you take a Republic empire from an opponent and put it in your tableau in the same Republic state?

No.

PlayerZ wrote:
Or, if you ever take an empire from an opponent will it always come to your tableau as a kingdom (independent of the whether it was Kingdom/Republic in your opponent's tableau)?

Yes.
 
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Geoff Speare
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oneiric wrote:
How does a Republic vote to install a King?


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I always just assumed "vote" was shorthand for a popular uprising of sorts. I'm not sure there were popular votes to become republics in the renaissance........ might be wrong though. There were kings who were voted in by councils etc as well, although I seem to remember if anything this kind of thing was being phased out. So thematically, I imagine a vote which flips a republic back to a kingdom to be a situation where a revolution of some kind has occured but has not been able to hold on to power - like, say, the restoration after Cromwell, or even Napoleon becoming emperor after the French Revolution.
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