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Subject: Feedback on using "same number of turns" at game end rss

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Justin Davis
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I played Trajan last night for the first time and loved it! However I played first and I also ended the game. I felt guilty that my gf got one less turn. It may not have won her the game, but it feels like it could in a future play.

So question, does anyone play such that you get an even number of turns? If so, how have your game been since - any lack of end game tension or imbalance?

I've read all the threads related to the topic and not looking to rehash any debates. Just feedback from those who do this.
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David Jones
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I have started doing this out of a sense of fairness. However, I think of the six games where I actually checked, it would not have made a difference as to who won or even what place lower players would have been in. It is obviously conceivable that it could make a difference, but I've yet to see it my plays. I would similarly be interested to see if anyone has any actual hard data on this.
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Justin Davis
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Any negatives since you implemented this? For example is the end game less exciting just due to this change?
 
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David Jones
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I don't think there is any change. There is enough endgame scoring that you don't really know what player's relative scores are until after the last turn is completed. Unless somebody wants to be annoying enough to halt the game and do the calculation, its not as if you can know that you are only two points behind the leader. While there might be tension in different sections of the board (building, military, or senate) I've never seen a game get tense over score position until you start doing that final tally.
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chris ward
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One of the best things about Trajan is manipulating the timing of end of rounds. The downside is the potential for uneven turn numbers. (There is also an intrinsic disadvantage to going last in first turn as tiles you want may get snaffled first).

We use a minor house rule to offset this. At set up do not deal each player a random Senate time. Lay out a panel one per player and chose one in reverse player order. For a slightly bigger boost if preferred allow players to draw their trade cards before deciding.
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Justin Davis
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Chris,

Do you also ensure even number of turns or do you feel this bonus/Senate tile thing is enough?

cw67q wrote:
One of the best things about Trajan is manipulating the timing of end of rounds. The downside is the potential for uneven turn numbers. (There is also an intrinsic disadvantage to going last in first turn as tiles you want may get snaffled first).

We use a minor house rule to offset this. At set up do not deal each player a random Senate time. Lay out a panel one per player and chose one in reverse player order. For a slightly bigger boost if preferred allow players to draw their trade cards before deciding.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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jrdavis4 wrote:
I played Trajan last night for the first time

always love not only duplicate posts.... but duplicate by folks after one play of a well play tested game that they are making variants

see

Imbalance due to different number of actions?

and

Let's brainstorm a solution to the first player imbalance, for those that think there is one
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Justin Davis
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JeffyJeff wrote:
jrdavis4 wrote:
I played Trajan last night for the first time

always love not only duplicate posts.... but duplicate by folks after one play of a well play tested game that they are making variants

see

Imbalance due to different number of actions?

and

Let's brainstorm a solution to the first player imbalance, for those that think there is one



I clearly stated I had already read all of those posts. I never said the game is unbalanced, and those threads actually do point to a first player advantage.

Regardless, this post isn't to debate that advantage. I'm only asking for feedback from folks who adjust the end game to give even turns.
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Pierre Beri
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Turn order was proven to create imbalance.
I do use a houserule to change that, along with other small changes.

On one hand, early-in-turn players lose the thrill of screwing later-in-turn players.
On the other hand, that thrill is transferred to the later players, who can decide whether or not to give everyone another turn, which offsets the fact that in early game they may be one move behind on the areas they most want to play on.

So:
– in quarter 4, the thrill is still there, just somewhere else;
– in quarters 1-2-3, the thrill is unchanged.

So IMO, any downsides are easily offset by the upsides and overoffset by the added equality.
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chris ward
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We haven't bothered with even numbered turns. Vast majority of my real world plays are 2p though and going second is better than going fourth. But guven tge number of turns i dont think its a huge deal at any player count and the tension over when the game will end outweighs the slight down side.
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Justin Davis
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Thanks all. I'm going to try Pierre's suggestion next time we play. If you force even number of turn then the last players in turn order can still cause a surprise ending but first player can't. Seems fair to me given the first player advantage. Prob not a big deal overall and I generally hate house rules. But it felt wrong getting more turns than my opponent AND going first. I will implement these ideas, thanks everyone!
 
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chris ward
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Thinking about this again.

There are two (potential) disadvantages to going later in the turn order:

(1) losing out in first choice of forum tile/ builder tile and position/ military tile and position (the other three actions are less affected)

(2) potentially getting 1 turn less than 1St player

I actually think (1) is the bigger problem particularly in 4 player. To fix this change set up to - lay out Senate bonus tiles equal to player count, in reverse turn order draw shipping cards then choose Senate tile. Ie last player does both in order then second last etc.

To fix (2) AT THE END OF THE GAME any player who got one turn less than start player gets 4 points (equivalent to the first missing demand tile). This avoids the crystal ball effect of awarding compensation at the start of the game

PS at the risk of redundancy I'm going to post this separately in variants.
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