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Subject: forced withdrawal rss

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Giuseppe Mario
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If I fail to conqueer a keep, The manual says to return to the place where you were, but it's considered forced withdrawal? So a wound?
 
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Ben Kyo
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It's only a forced withdrawal if the place you return to is somewhere you cannot be (like, a lake or a mountain). In that case you make a "forced withdrawal" to a more distant hex, and take a Wound.
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Giuseppe Mario
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I got a doubt about a card,"draw mana". Can the stronger effect be ativated by a mana die if the effect says to take a die? Do I take two die from the source this turn? One to use the effect and one for the effect?
 
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Giuseppe Mario
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Benkyo wrote:
It's only a forced withdrawal if the place you return to is somewhere you cannot be (like, a lake or a mountain). In that case you make a "forced withdrawal" to a more distant hex, and take a Wound.


Good to know! Thanks
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Eric Neff
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Is that correct? I never read the rule that way. I.e., the keep you just failed to take after assaulting it is not a "safe" space post-assault, since there's still a unit on it. Therefore you must withdraw to the space from whence you entered it, thus taking a wound. It doesn't matter whether you started from a mountain/lake (rare) or an open space. That's the way I read it.
 
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Eric Neff
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Beppe667 wrote:
I got a doubt about a card,"draw mana". Can the stronger effect be ativated by a mana die if the effect says to take a die? Do I take two die from the source this turn? One to use the effect and one for the effect?



If you power "Mana Draw" with a white die from the source, you still "take" a second die from the source just to identify the color of your bonus tokens. You're not really using the second die as a mana, you're just using it to set the color, so you're not violating the "no two dice from the source" rule.
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redboot wrote:
Is that correct? I never read the rule that way. I.e., the keep you just failed to take after assaulting it is not a "safe" space post-assault, since there's still a unit on it. Therefore you must withdraw to the space from whence you entered it, thus taking a wound. It doesn't matter whether you started from a mountain/lake (rare) or an open space. That's the way I read it.
Rules say: "If you failed to defeat all the defenders of a fortified site, you have to withdraw back to the space you were attacking from. If it is not a safe place, Forced withdrawal rules apply."

So if it is a safe space, Forced withdrawal does not apply.
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Giuseppe Mario
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In the rulebook, in the section about the movement only talks about forced withdrawal referred to a space occupied by a player. About the keep it says only to return to the space where you was. Maybe is considered like a strategic retreat. Or maybe is forced withdrawal, and the manual considers it obvious.
 
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Eric Neff
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Fielmann wrote:
redboot wrote:
Is that correct? I never read the rule that way. I.e., the keep you just failed to take after assaulting it is not a "safe" space post-assault, since there's still a unit on it. Therefore you must withdraw to the space from whence you entered it, thus taking a wound. It doesn't matter whether you started from a mountain/lake (rare) or an open space. That's the way I read it.
Rules say: "If you failed to defeat all the defenders of a fortified site, you have to withdraw back to the space you were attacking from. If it is not a safe place, Forced withdrawal rules apply."

So if it is a safe space, Forced withdrawal does not apply.


I disagree. You first move onto a keep to assault it. You fail. You are now NOT on a safe space because it is an unconquered fortified site (Movement Rule 7.d). You cannot end your turn on an unsafe space (End of Turn Rule 2). Therefore you must use forced withdrawal and take a wound. If you are forced to withdraw onto a mountain or lake, you must withdraw a second time and take two wounds.
 
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MLeis
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redboot wrote:
Fielmann wrote:
redboot wrote:
Is that correct? I never read the rule that way. I.e., the keep you just failed to take after assaulting it is not a "safe" space post-assault, since there's still a unit on it. Therefore you must withdraw to the space from whence you entered it, thus taking a wound. It doesn't matter whether you started from a mountain/lake (rare) or an open space. That's the way I read it.
Rules say: "If you failed to defeat all the defenders of a fortified site, you have to withdraw back to the space you were attacking from. If it is not a safe place, Forced withdrawal rules apply."

So if it is a safe space, Forced withdrawal does not apply.


I disagree. You first move onto a keep to assault it. You fail. You are now NOT on a safe space because it is an unconquered fortified site (Movement Rule 7.d). You cannot end your turn on an unsafe space (End of Turn Rule 2). Therefore you must use forced withdrawal and take a wound. If you are forced to withdraw onto a mountain or lake, you must withdraw a second time and take two wounds.
The part in italics does not apply here because we are not yet in the End of Turn sequence. Getting away from the fortified site after an unsuccessful assault is resolved as a combat outcome.
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Eric Neff
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Looking back at some old threads, it looks like this issue has a long a sordid history of disagreement. Doesn't look like its really been resolved by the designer as of yet.
 
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Ben Kyo
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redboot wrote:
Looking back at some old threads, it looks like this issue has a long a sordid history of disagreement. Doesn't look like its really been resolved by the designer as of yet.

Beppe667 wrote:
In the rulebook, in the section about the movement only talks about forced withdrawal referred to a space occupied by a player. About the keep it says only to return to the space where you was. Maybe is considered like a strategic retreat. Or maybe is forced withdrawal, and the manual considers it obvious.

Aside from some PvP ambiguities and a lack of explicit explanations of some icons and final scoring, the manual does not leave anything in the base game open to interpretation. If you trust it, and make no assumptions, you will get to the correct answer 100% of the time.

Forced withdrawal is not disputed, the rule is clear.
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Gabriel Honore
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redboot wrote:
Looking back at some old threads, it looks like this issue has a long a sordid history of disagreement. Doesn't look like its really been resolved by the designer as of yet.

I wonder which thread you're referring to.
To my knowledge, there is no debate on that point. If the designer didn't answer, this is because the point is clear in the rules.
Moving back to the space you were attacking from after a failed assault is not forced withdrawal.

/Edit : ninjaed
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Bill K
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. . . then came the king's son, wounded, sore bestead, and weaponless, and saw the broken sword, hilt-buried in the dry and trodden sand, and ran and snatched it, and with battle shout lifted afresh, he hewed his enemy down . . .
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From the rulebook, p. 9:

If you failed to defeat all the defenders of a fortified site, you have to withdraw back to the space you were attacking from. If it is not a safe place, Forced withdrawal rules apply (see the “End of the Turn” section).

The "it" is clearly referring to the space you were attacking from.

The "it" cannot be referring to the fortified site itself because, by definition, if you do not defeat all of the defenders of a fortified site, it is never a safe place:

A space is considered to be a safe space if:
• It is accessible under normal conditions (i.e. if no special effects apply).
It is not an unconquered fortified site, or a keep owned by an opponent.
• It does not contain another hero, except for sites that allow more heroes (portal, conquered city). (p. 6)


Also, from the official FAQ:
Q: Could you explain Forced Withdrawal better?
A: First of all, if you fail to defeat the defenders of a fortified site, you must withdraw back to the space where you attacked from. This is not Forced Withdrawal. Forced Withdrawal rules only apply at the end of your turn if the space you are on is not safe. This is usually because you did an assault or attacked another player from a lake using some water walking skill, or revealed a new tile when standing on a lake, and then find out you cannot move from the lake.
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Jerry J
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The funny thing about forced withdrawal is that it is an extremely rare occurence. Many people asked questions about it, but when it does apply, the situation on the board is clearly something very unusual. Personally, I think I had it happen once in around 15 games.
 
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Magnesi
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jerryj wrote:
The funny thing about forced withdrawal is that it is an extremely rare occurence. Many people asked questions about it, but when it does apply, the situation on the board is clearly something very unusual. Personally, I think I had it happen once in around 15 games.
I assume you only play solo. In multiplayer games without PvP, FW occurs quite often.
 
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Jerry J
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Quote:

I assume you only play solo. In multiplayer games without PvP, FW occurs quite often.

Not at all! I play multiplayer with pvp exclusively.
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Ben Kyo
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jerryj wrote:
Quote:

I assume you only play solo. In multiplayer games without PvP, FW occurs quite often.

Not at all! I play multiplayer with pvp exclusively.

The only way to play =)
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Jerry J
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Benkyo wrote:
jerryj wrote:
Quote:

I assume you only play solo. In multiplayer games without PvP, FW occurs quite often.

Not at all! I play multiplayer with pvp exclusively.

The only way to play =)


It surely is! I know some people shy away from pvp, but I don't understand that at all - I'd only disallow it if teaching someone for the first time.

On a different note - I hope that the OP is now satisfied with the answers and won't mind too much if I ask a somewhat related question here instead of starting a new topic.

The discussion here got me thinking for a minute about a rather unusual case in MK (although by all means possible). I was certain that I knew the right answer, but now I have doubts. To illustrate:
Player A assaults a fortified site from a space occupied by player B (moving through him). The assault fails. Player A retreats.
Now, in case of PvP being not allowed, the above case is simple - Forced Withdrawal applies.
With PvP allowed, I was always sure that in that case player A would also have to withdraw, but now I see I based that on almost nothing. Having read parts of the rulebook today, I'm now considering a different scenario - PvP fight ensues. No problem with that except for the fact that player A takes part in two fights during his turn - but this would mean taking two actions. The question is - what takes precedence? Is player A forced to withdraw only because he is forbidden to take two actions? Part 8e. of the movement section of the rulebook lists four cases where Forced Withdrawal (instead of a PvP fight) happens - this is not one of them.
I'm quite sure that player A has to end his turn and perform FW during end of turn - but the aforementioned paragraph should include a fifth case along the lines of "Player vs. Player combat is allowed, but you have already performed an action this turn". Without it, I can't find a clear rule to back the need for a Forced Withdrawal. Below is the paragraph for reference:

Quote:
e. In certain situations, Player vs. Player combat is
not
allowed
. If you end your movement on the same space
as another player in these situations, you
cannot do any
action
on your turn.
Forced Withdrawal
rules apply to you
at the end of your turn (see the “End of the Turn” section).
These situations are:
• End of Round has been called, and each player has his
last turn this Round.
• The scenario conditions were met, and each player has
his last turn in the game.
• You play a cooperative scenario, or you agreed Player vs.
Player is not allowed in your game.
• You play a team scenario, and that other player is your
teammate.


I'd appreciate input on this.
 
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Gabriel Honore
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Forced withdrawal apply.
It can never happen that a player takes two actions in the same turn.
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Chris
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Benkyo wrote:
jerryj wrote:
Quote:

I assume you only play solo. In multiplayer games without PvP, FW occurs quite often.

Not at all! I play multiplayer with pvp exclusively.

The only way to play =)


Yes, but only if you had mates in your area that know how (and are willing) to play MK....which is a rare thing to find.
 
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Jerry J
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nomrefuse wrote:
Forced withdrawal apply.
It can never happen that a player takes two actions in the same turn.


Ok, let me rephrase my thoughts. Forced withdrawal is certainly the more logical option. However, in my opinion, the rulebook does not provide a clear explanation, despite otherwise leaving very little rule ambiguities.
Coming back to the example, player A lands on a space with another player. The rules state that he must now perform a compulsory action, which is pvp combat, unless it is forbidden because of the circumstances I quoted in my previous post. This is not the case, so pvp should happen.
On the other hand, it is clearly wrong to participate in two combats on a turn.

I'm probably nitpicking, but I'm very surprised the rulebook doesn't cover this situation.
 
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Gabriel Honore
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jerryj wrote:
I'm probably nitpicking, but I'm very surprised the rulebook doesn't cover this situation.

Mayyyyyybe nitpicking

Note that the quote you provided seems to be from the movement section of the rulebook, and movement is before action.
The situation you describes is after a failed assault, so it may be described in combat section.
A space with another player is not a space space and forced withdrawal will apply.
 
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Gabriel Honore
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Now I have some free time, here's the (probably) definite answer : (quotes from the rulebook)

Combat outcome :
Quote:
d. If you failed to defeat all the defenders of a fortified site ,
you have to withdraw back to the space you were attacking
from. If it is not a safe place, Forced withdrawal rules apply
(see the “End of the Turn” section)
.

End of turn :
Quote:
2. Forced withdrawal: You must end your turn on a safe space
(see paragraph 7d in “Movement” section, pg. 7).

said section :
Quote:
d. A space is considered to be a safe space if:
• It is accessible under normal conditions (i.e. if no special
effects apply).
• It is not an unconquered fortified site, or a keep owned
by an opponent.
• It does not contain another hero, except for sites that
allow more heroes (portal, conquered city ).
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Jerry J
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Thanks for your thorough reply. I'd say there's still some wiggle room, but this is such a corner case that I feel it's not worth beating a dead horse. The important thing is, everyone agrees that the player cannot attack the other one and will suffer forced withdrawal, myself included - even if I still think there's a very tiny omission in the rules.

 
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