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Subject: Running out of weapon cards rss

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Sparr Risher
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We are out of weapon cards in the deck and I am supposed to draw a sword. I replace two of my sword cards with the 3-sword token. Do those two sword cards then form a new short-lived weapon deck that other players might be able to draw, breaking my "keep all the weapon cards" strategy?
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Olli Juhala
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sparr0 wrote:
We are out of weapon cards in the deck and I am supposed to draw a sword. I replace two of my sword cards with the 3-sword token. Do those two sword cards then form a new short-lived weapon deck that other players might be able to draw, breaking my "keep all the weapon cards" strategy?


Yes and why on earth would you keep all the weapon cards?
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Daniel Leitão
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Accordingly to the rulesbook's page 22: "When the (weapon's) draw pile runs out of cards, shuffle the discard pile and form a new face down draw pile."
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Olli Juhala
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danielmleitao wrote:
Accordingly to the rulesbook's page 22: "When the (weapon's) draw pile runs out of cards, shuffle the discard pile and form a new face down draw pile."


Also note on the same page: "Ships, goods tiles, building resources, and weapon cards are
considered to have an unlimited supply.
"

So basically, you can't deny weapon cards from other players, making the strategy pointless.
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Sparr Risher
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Shader10 wrote:
Yes and why on earth would you keep all the weapon cards?
It didn't start out as intentional. I just realized at some point that I had 25 weapon cards and thought I might as well exhaust the deck.

danielmleitao wrote:
Accordingly to the rulesbook's page 22: "When the (weapon's) draw pile runs out of cards, shuffle the discard pile and form a new face down draw pile."
Thanks, we were already aware of that rule.

Shader10 wrote:
Also note on the same page: "Ships, goods tiles, building resources, and weapon cards are
considered to have an unlimited supply.
"

So basically, you can't deny weapon cards from other players, making the strategy pointless.
If you look a few sentences later, you'll find that you only have an unlimited supply of weapon cards for consolation weapons, not for normal draws.
 
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Olli Juhala
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sparr0 wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
Yes and why on earth would you keep all the weapon cards?
It didn't start out as intentional. I just realized at some point that I had 25 weapon cards and thought I might as well exhaust the deck.

danielmleitao wrote:
Accordingly to the rulesbook's page 22: "When the (weapon's) draw pile runs out of cards, shuffle the discard pile and form a new face down draw pile."
Thanks, we were already aware of that rule.

Shader10 wrote:
Also note on the same page: "Ships, goods tiles, building resources, and weapon cards are
considered to have an unlimited supply.
"

So basically, you can't deny weapon cards from other players, making the strategy pointless.
If you look a few sentences later, you'll find that you only have an unlimited supply of weapon cards for consolation weapons, not for normal draws.


The rule about unlimited supply is to me atleast the general rule, with the consolatory weapons rule specified because in those cases you know which weapon card you should get. There doesn't seem to be any reason to hoard weapon cards thematically or strategically, since they accumulate no points and you waste resources gathering them. And the game itself suggests you should always use weapon cards before other resources when hunting/trapping/whaling/raiding.
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Grant
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sparr0 wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
Yes and why on earth would you keep all the weapon cards?
It didn't start out as intentional. I just realized at some point that I had 25 weapon cards and thought I might as well exhaust the deck.

This is an exceptionally bad strategy.
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Sparr Risher
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Shader10 wrote:
The rule about unlimited supply is to me atleast the general rule
How do you implement the unlimited supply for non-consolatory draws? When someone needs to draw from an empty deck (with no discard pile), you have to somehow produce a random weapon card for them. What's the appropriate/fair way to do this?

grant5 wrote:
sparr0 wrote:
I might as well exhaust the deck.

This is an exceptionally bad strategy.
It wasn't great, but I wouldn't call it exceptionally bad. I was set up to do whaling and hunting and ended up with the occupation that gives you three weapon cards every time you eat one of the two big meats. I was filling my boards with the green tiles from hunting and whaling (obviously having upgraded some of them to blue), eating the meat, and accumulating far more weapon cards than I needed to keep up the cycle.
 
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Dan Silverman
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Eating big meat is a huge waste even with weapon cards.

Anyway to answer the how question, I'd probably demand you replace some of your weapons with markers denoting 3 of each or somesuch, and shuffle them together? Repeat as necessary.
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Sparr Risher
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I wasn't even using the weapon cards, that's why they kept accumulating!
 
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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There should be a rule that if both the weapon deck and discard pile are empty, players are obligated to trade as many of their weapon cards in as possible for the 3-of tokens.
Seems like a corner-case situation that's easy enough to handle.
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Dan Silverman
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sparr0 wrote:
I wasn't even using the weapon cards, that's why they kept accumulating!


I meant "even with the occ giving you weapons, eating big meat is pretty wasteful"
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Olli Juhala
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jozxyqk wrote:
There should be a rule that if both the weapon deck and discard pile are empty, players are obligated to trade as many of their weapon cards in as possible for the 3-of tokens.
Seems like a corner-case situation that's easy enough to handle.


Implicitly, that rule is already there, but yeah, the specific situation covered is about consolatory draws. But there's no reason really to suspect you couldn't use the same procedure in other situations.
 
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Olli Juhala
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sparr0 wrote:
Shader10 wrote:
The rule about unlimited supply is to me atleast the general rule
How do you implement the unlimited supply for non-consolatory draws? When someone needs to draw from an empty deck (with no discard pile), you have to somehow produce a random weapon card for them. What's the appropriate/fair way to do this?


Everyone returns weapon cards back to the supply using the thing markers. If the deck is empty, you should have all weapon types available for returning, thus you end up with an even spread.

grant5 wrote:
sparr0 wrote:
I might as well exhaust the deck.

This is an exceptionally bad strategy.
It wasn't great, but I wouldn't call it exceptionally bad. I was set up to do whaling and hunting and ended up with the occupation that gives you three weapon cards every time you eat one of the two big meats. I was filling my boards with the green tiles from hunting and whaling (obviously having upgraded some of them to blue), eating the meat, and accumulating far more weapon cards than I needed to keep up the cycle.[/q]

you would have been better off upgrading at least some of the meats you ate, thus meaning you have less weapon cards.
 
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Ryan Feathers
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sparr0 wrote:
It wasn't great, but I wouldn't call it exceptionally bad.


It really is though. You're expending a lot of effort to acquire dozens of weapons, without being able to use them if you want to exhaust the deck, all in the goal of...preventing your opponents from gaining a couple weapons? Since weapons aren't even points, you're preventing them from gaining resources that aren't very valuable and only allow them to do a little better at the spots that require them...even then things like Pillaging/Whaling by the end of the game can be pretty good even without weapons due to the bonuses/discounts you can get off of boats and ore. (+3 Pillaging with a full longboat or -4 whaling with 3 whaling boats and one ore both make for strong actions without weapon cards). I'm assuming it's going to take until at least about Round 5 to gather all those weapons, so you'll prevent your opponents 2 weapon cards from the start of each of the following two rounds. Spending all that effort to deny your opponents two weapons apiece.....well exceptionally bad seems to fit.


With all that being said, the actual rules seem very clear anyhow--weapon cards aren't intended to be of limited supply. The rulebook makes it pretty clear only houses and exploration boards are meant to be limited, while ships, goods tiles, building resources, and weapon cards are meant to be unlimited. As such, there isn't even a strategy to pursue here as weapons should be unlimited--if there ever isn't a weapon to draw, players need to trade in for thing tokens (or otherwise improvise) until there are weapon cards in the draw pile.
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Ossian Grr aka "Josh"
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Maybe this calls for a mini-expansion with a "weapon die" and wooden/plastic weapon bits.

That would remove the ambiguity of the infinite weapon supply.

 
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Sparr Risher
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Ranior wrote:
sparr0 wrote:
It wasn't great, but I wouldn't call it exceptionally bad.
It really is though. You're expending a lot of effort to acquire dozens of weapons, without being able to use them if you want to exhaust the deck, all in the goal of...preventing your opponents from gaining a couple weapons?

No. My goal wasn't to prevent them, it was just a side effect. My goal was to see how a bunch of hunting/whaling/meat-related occupations synergized, and this one happened to have the side effect of giving me a bunch of weapon cards.

Quote:
players need to trade in for thing tokens (or otherwise improvise) until there are weapon cards in the draw pile.
Would you say everyone with three or more of any weapon should trade in? Or four+?
 
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Olli Juhala
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sparr0 wrote:
Ranior wrote:
sparr0 wrote:
It wasn't great, but I wouldn't call it exceptionally bad.
It really is though. You're expending a lot of effort to acquire dozens of weapons, without being able to use them if you want to exhaust the deck, all in the goal of...preventing your opponents from gaining a couple weapons?

No. My goal wasn't to prevent them, it was just a side effect. My goal was to see how a bunch of hunting/whaling/meat-related occupations synergized, and this one happened to have the side effect of giving me a bunch of weapon cards.

Quote:
players need to trade in for thing tokens (or otherwise improvise) until there are weapon cards in the draw pile.
Would you say everyone with three or more of any weapon should trade in? Or four+?


Well, it's probably easier if you have 4 cards, but it doesn't really matter in this case, as long as players collective exchange all types of weapon cards to create an even draw deck. It should be impossible that you simply can't make exchanges in a situation where the draw and discard piles are empty.
 
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Grant
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sparr0 wrote:
Ranior wrote:
sparr0 wrote:
It wasn't great, but I wouldn't call it exceptionally bad.
It really is though. You're expending a lot of effort to acquire dozens of weapons, without being able to use them if you want to exhaust the deck, all in the goal of...preventing your opponents from gaining a couple weapons?

No. My goal wasn't to prevent them, it was just a side effect. My goal was to see how a bunch of hunting/whaling/meat-related occupations synergized, and this one happened to have the side effect of giving me a bunch of weapon cards.


This guy disagrees:
sparr0 wrote:
It didn't start out as intentional. I just realized at some point that I had 25 weapon cards and thought I might as well exhaust the deck.


This other guy should tell him he doesn't need all those cards anyway:
sparr0 wrote:
I wasn't even using the weapon cards, that's why they kept accumulating!


sauron
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Sparr Risher
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ok, from the beginning:

I started with occupations that worked together for hunting/whaling/meat effects. I intended to use those to get money, points, other benefits.

That turned into accidentally ending up with 25 unused weapon cards, THEN I decided to try exhausting the deck.

By then I had effectively monopolized the relevant board spaces, so I kept doing it, and I didn't need the weapon cards to hunt/whale successfully so they kept accumulating.
 
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Olli Juhala
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sparr0 wrote:
ok, from the beginning:

I started with occupations that worked together for hunting/whaling/meat effects. I intended to use those to get money, points, other benefits.

That turned into accidentally ending up with 25 unused weapon cards, THEN I decided to try exhausting the deck.

By then I had effectively monopolized the relevant board spaces, so I kept doing it, and I didn't need the weapon cards to hunt/whale successfully so they kept accumulating.


Did you win, out of curiosity. Anyways, the answer about the weapon cards still stands: they are clearly stated to be unlimited component, and it wouldn't make much thematic sense either to have them limited. You need to improvise in the future, but if both the draw and discard are empty, returning all types of weapon cards and grabbing those tokens is the simplest solution.
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Sparr Risher
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I came in second, ~90 points.
 
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