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Subject: RAW8 19.4.3: Restrictions on use of minor country units rss

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Hugh Grotius
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I don't understand the example supporting Rule 19.4.3. The rule says:

Quote:
... you may only move a minor country land or aircraft unit ... outside the minor country's (current) home country ... if half or more of its on-map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country...


But the example given says this:

Quote:
Example: The Netherlands is incompletely conquered (see 13.7.1) and
the Netherlands East Indies is the Netherlands current home country.
The Netherlands has 2 land units and 2 aircraft on the map. 3 of them
may be outside the NEI. If playing with Territories in Flames the NEI
territorial may also leave the NEI (as the NEI limit is separate from the
Netherlands limit).


How can 3 of the units be outside the NEI, if that's now the Netherlands current home country? Should it be only 2?

Also, why can the NEI Terr leave the NEI? If it's the only NEI unit, doesn't it have to stay within the NEI?

I know the example is largely moot for this particular example, as Dutch units aren't likely to flee the NEI, but I'm still curious. Thanks!
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Wendell
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Yellow Springs
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Si non potes reperire Berolini in tabula, ludens essetis non WIF.
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Hey, get your stinking cursor off my face! I got nukes, you know.
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Grotius wrote:
I don't understand the example supporting Rule 19.4.3. The rule says:

Quote:
... you may only move a minor country land or aircraft unit ... outside the minor country's (current) home country ... if half or more of its on-map land and aircraft units are currently inside its home country...


But the example given says this:

Quote:
Example: The Netherlands is incompletely conquered (see 13.7.1) and
the Netherlands East Indies is the Netherlands current home country.
The Netherlands has 2 land units and 2 aircraft on the map. 3 of them
may be outside the NEI. If playing with Territories in Flames the NEI
territorial may also leave the NEI (as the NEI limit is separate from the
Netherlands limit).


How can 3 of the units be outside the NEI, if that's now the Netherlands current home country? Should it be only 2?

Also, why can the NEI Terr leave the NEI? If it's the only NEI unit, doesn't it have to stay within the NEI?

I know the example is largely moot for this particular example, as Dutch units aren't likely to flee the NEI, but I'm still curious. Thanks!


Read it closely - you can only MOVE a minor if half or more are in-country at the moment of the move. A minor has 4 land/air units. Two are in home country, two outside. It wants to move a 3rd unit out of the home. AT THE MOMENT IT MOVES, there are at least half units in its home country, so the moving unit can move. Now there's 1 at home and 3 outside, so that 4th unit couldn't leave.

edit: As for the NEI TERR, even if you have a minor country with only ONE land/air unit, it can always leave - because again, at the moment it moves (to leave), at least 1/2 of that minor's units are in-country.
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Hugh Grotius
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That explains it! Thanks!

I do wish the example included one more sentence saying what you said! But then again, I normally am pretty good at reading rules closely, and I'm annoyed at myself that I didn't figure this one out on my own.

I'm getting close to finishing my first read of RAW8. The good news is that most of the rules make sense to me. I wasn't as confused by the multiple-states-of-war rules as others seem to be. I imagine I'll be posting here when I have to create my first Vichy (or figure out why Germany would ever want to collapse Vichy), but that's years away.

Anyway, thanks again.
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Bruce Jurin
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Grotius wrote:
That explains it! Thanks!

I do wish the example included one more sentence saying what you said! But then again, I normally am pretty good at reading rules closely, and I'm annoyed at myself that I didn't figure this one out on my own.

I'm getting close to finishing my first read of RAW8. The good news is that most of the rules make sense to me. I wasn't as confused by the multiple-states-of-war rules as others seem to be. I imagine I'll be posting here when I have to create my first Vichy (or figure out why Germany would ever want to collapse Vichy), but that's years away.

Anyway, thanks again.


Don"t feel bad, this rule is very often confused; of course the example is there to point out this issue.

Multiple states of war has been the most difficult set of rules since RaW 1; there is just no way to avoid tremendous complexities with these rules.

For example, we get issues like a German land unit traces to an Italian HQ. It traces overseas; but the sea route goes through a zone with a CW ship. The CW is at war with Germany, while Italy is at war only with zfrance. So the CW ship blocks supply of traces by a German unit but not an Italian unit. But here we have a a German unit tracing through an Italian HQ; so is supply blocked because the tracing unit is German, or not because it traces through an Italian HQ?

The critical point here isn't the answer (gold star to whoever knows this) :-); the point is this is hard. The reason it is hard is that either answer can be justified through logic.

This isn't the only example of tremendous complexity from Multiple States of War.

Probably the second most difficult set of rules are the Vichy rules. In going through the rules, there are a tremendous number of 'exception; Vichy France' references and everything seems to be an exception. Harry zrowland has complained about how much of the rulebook is taken by Vichy relative to its importance, but we couldn't figure out how to simplify them.

Similary, Soviet Border Rectification is always a cause of questoons, as these are all exceptions.

I usually recommend people learning the game not start with the 1939 Global War scenario; even if you play the 4 map scenarios, if you play later scenarios you can avoid most of these rules.

That is, I think players should start by concentrating on core mechanics first. These are the land, naval, and air rules, supply, Zoc's, etc.
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Hugh Grotius
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Thanks for your comments. I hadn't thought of starting with a later scenario, but I see the sense in it. By 1941, everyone is at war, and Vichy is already set. Plus, I've played lots of 1939-41 thanks to Matrix WIF, but I've hardly seen 1942, except for a couple plays of the Guadalcanal scenario.

Also, a major attraction of WIF is fighting the Pacific War alongside the European one. The War in the Pacific is my favorite part of WW2; I've played the Matrix "Admiral's Edition" for years. And my favorite part of the Pacific War is 1941-43, not 1939-41. But I'd like the full 4-map experience. Maybe Missed the Bus, Lebensraum, or Waking Giant? I do wonder if I'll be able to make myself not set up Global War first.
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