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Subject: Prosperity Plus - detailed city management variant rss

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Sean McCarthy
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This variant provides more detailed uses of prosperity, plus ways to increase difficulty in exchange for bonus prosperity.

Summary:

1) Choose a baseline difficulty level for your whole campaign.
2) Earn bonus prosperity when you apply Challenges to increase the difficulty above that.
3) Spend prosperity in a completely new way at City Buildings.

Here's a sample challenge (there are 8):


Here's a sample city building (there are 7):



Please take a look and tell me what you think! I intend to iterate. Please keep spoilers hidden.

Pdfs Here (including rules)

(Edit 17 Jan: Updated to version 2.)
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Giannis Tilias
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I don't quite get what you mean in the challenge cards by saying "Play indefinetely at an additional +1 difficulty".
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Sean McCarthy
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GladiatorGr wrote:
I don't quite get what you mean in the challenge cards by saying "Play indefinetely at an additional +1 difficulty".


After you've earned 5 prosperity from it, if you want to use it more to earn further prosperity from it, you must play at +1 difficulty. There's no limit on how many times you can earn prosperity from the harder version.
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Matt Ziemer
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Cool idea. So for the sundries, I could spend 1 tick of prosperity to unlock certain items? If the items are already unlocked do you still need to spend a bunch of prosperity to get up to the items you don't have yet or would the building start with a bunch of checks on it?

I definitely like the idea of challenges and having some reward just gives that nice feeling of satisfaction on top of just completing it.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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meziemer wrote:
Cool idea. So for the sundries, I could spend 1 tick of prosperity to unlock certain items? If the items are already unlocked do you still need to spend a bunch of prosperity to get up to the items you don't have yet or would the building start with a bunch of checks on it?


In this variant, this is *the* way to unlock those items. (They're all prosperity level unlocks in the normal rules, and this variant replaces the concept of prosperity level.)

If you wanted to switch to this variant mid-campaign, I'm not sure of the best way to do it. Certainly you should start with some comparable unlocks to what you already had.
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Matt Ziemer
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Aah ok that makes sense. Very good idea! I have to say this seems like one of the better variant ideas I've seen on here. Well done.

A few comments: The Crooked Bone bonuses seem really OP. Awesome and I really like the ideas but maybe most should cost another check or something.

Deadly remains could be worth another bonus prosperity. That's a lot of extra traps to worry about and no cash that round.

Have you considered -1 Prosperity, or -1 to the bonus, for playing on easy? So if I just play on easy, nothing happens but if I play on easy and with Berserk Challenge it's just +1 Prosperity instead of +2?

Speaking of which, Berserk could probobly be a +3 prosperity challenge. Sounds like a cool idea but, all monsters act twice? Wow. So would stun just last for one of their turns a round then.

Seems like anyone wanting to adapt this variant mid campaign could just spend all the prosperity ticks they've earned at city buildings. Have you calculated out the difference in prosperity spent to get to equivalent stages of unlocks? Is it fairly even?
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Sean McCarthy
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Thanks for the feedback!

meziemer wrote:
A few comments: The Crooked Bone bonuses seem really OP. Awesome and I really like the ideas but maybe most should cost another check or something.

Deadly remains could be worth another bonus prosperity. That's a lot of extra traps to worry about and no cash that round.


Mmm, you could be right about this.

Quote:
Have you considered -1 Prosperity, or -1 to the bonus, for playing on easy? So if I just play on easy, nothing happens but if I play on easy and with Berserk Challenge it's just +1 Prosperity instead of +2?


It seems fine in principle, but I don't think you'd actually want to do that. Is it worth adding that option if I think it's a bad option?

Quote:
Speaking of which, Berserk could probobly be a +3 prosperity challenge. Sounds like a cool idea but, all monsters act twice? Wow. So would stun just last for one of their turns a round then.


Possibly. For what it's worth, I tested it out on scenario 1 and found it less scary than you might think - ended with near full health on both characters and not many cards spent. Stun gets worse because it only stops one turn, but just killing the enemies gets better (as does invisibility, and staying out of range).

Overall, some of these challenges are more fair than others. To some extent, that's intentional - I want options available for people who are breezing through everything. But if something is off balance by more than 1 prosperity it would be worth fixing.

Quote:
Seems like anyone wanting to adapt this variant mid campaign could just spend all the prosperity ticks they've earned at city buildings. Have you calculated out the difference in prosperity spent to get to equivalent stages of unlocks? Is it fairly even?


A reasonable conversion would be to spend all the prosperity points that you have recorded from non-variant play, plus 1 per completed scenario. Tick off an even distribution of boxes from the Challenge cards that sums to the bonus prosperity you're taking. And sell back any items you're not supposed to have access to anymore.

This variant provides opportunities to spend somewhere around 140 prosperity while the normal game (2nd edition) uses less than half that. I haven't had the opportunity to play a campaign of this yet so I can only estimate, but I think it should also more than double your prosperity earnings - hopefully resulting in getting to do most of the unlocks over the course of a full campaign. So, I did the some math, but I lack the practical knowledge to really know if it will turn out as I believe.
 
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Matt Ziemer
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Thanks for the feedback!

Quote:
Have you considered -1 Prosperity, or -1 to the bonus, for playing on easy? So if I just play on easy, nothing happens but if I play on easy and with Berserk Challenge it's just +1 Prosperity instead of +2?


It seems fine in principle, but I don't think you'd actually want to do that. Is it worth adding that option if I think it's a bad option?


Yah, I was just asking to see if that was an intention of yours or not. It feels like it would be a way to prevent a player being sneaky and playing on easy to make it easy to best a berserk challenge. If you think it's a bad idea, you definitely shouldn't include it.

SevenSpirits wrote:

Quote:
Speaking of which, Berserk could probobly be a +3 prosperity challenge. Sounds like a cool idea but, all monsters act twice? Wow. So would stun just last for one of their turns a round then.


Possibly. For what it's worth, I tested it out on scenario 1 and found it less scary than you might think - ended with near full health on both characters and not many cards spent. Stun gets worse because it only stops one turn, but just killing the enemies gets better (as does invisibility, and staying out of range).

Overall, some of these challenges are more fair than others. To some extent, that's intentional - I want options available for people who are breezing through everything. But if something is off balance by more than 1 prosperity it would be worth fixing.


Yah you would know better than me. It does seem really intense at first but who knows.

SevenSpirits wrote:

Quote:
Seems like anyone wanting to adapt this variant mid campaign could just spend all the prosperity ticks they've earned at city buildings. Have you calculated out the difference in prosperity spent to get to equivalent stages of unlocks? Is it fairly even?


A reasonable conversion would be to spend all the prosperity points that you have recorded from non-variant play, plus 1 per completed scenario. Tick off an even distribution of boxes from the Challenge cards that sums to the bonus prosperity you're taking. And sell back any items you're not supposed to have access to anymore.

This variant provides opportunities to spend somewhere around 140 prosperity while the normal game (2nd edition) uses less than half that. I haven't had the opportunity to play a campaign of this yet so I can only estimate, but I think it should also more than double your prosperity earnings - hopefully resulting in getting to do most of the unlocks over the course of a full campaign. So, I did the some math, but I lack the practical knowledge to really know if it will turn out as I believe.


I'll try a conversion with one of my campaigns and let you know how it goes for me. Seems like a really good addition to the game.
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Simon Skov
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This looks really cool! I'd thought about how having a more involved evolution of the town over the course of the campaign would be interesting. I could also see custom city/road events going very week with this, maybe even scenarios.

I'm not sure I like how many of the unlocks pertaining to enhancements just give you some percentage off the cost, though discounting enhancing lost cards its a good idea, since they're normally not very attractive candidates.
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Sean McCarthy
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nom_ wrote:
I'm not sure I like how many of the unlocks pertaining to enhancements just give you some percentage off the cost, though discounting enhancing lost cards its a good idea, since they're normally not very attractive candidates.


What would you prefer?
 
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Matt Ziemer
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I finally got around to attempting a conversion for one of my campaigns.

We are prosperity lvl 5 (nearly 6) with 29 ticks of prosperity in our campaign. I used up all 29 and still needed 17 more ticks to reach the equivalent unlocks with Prosperity Plus.

It wasn't to difficult to get the extra 17 just by ticking off challenges from memory with the recent hard and very hard scenarios we've played. I stopped there though. I wouldn't want to spend and use up a challenge for each scenario we've played so far.

First, we're 60 or 70 scenarios in and I don't think we need to spend that many extra prosperity. Also theres no way we beat one of those challenges every time.

Second, we're nearly done the campaign and I want to get to use these challenges. These challenges are just the thing to strive for when we run out of campaign to drive continued play and to push for further unlocks. I don't want to waste them all with previous plays, I want to do them now.

On that note, as a conversion, it felt kind of tough on us. It's a neat idea getting to unlock some content with each tick of Prosperity but it does feel like it takes quite a bit longer to get there. I don't think it would be near as much of an issue to start the campaign with Prosperity Plus.

I think the challenges should feel like a reward for playing on harder modes. With the conversion, it feels like the opposite. I'm way behind on unlocks I already had, despite playing with more difficulty.

One suggestion, maybe adjust the city buildings to allow Prosperity Plus to start with access to all the same equipment and extras that regular Gloomhaven starts with. This will just speed up the Prosperity reward that small amount so it feels more like a reward.

What was your thinking for pushing the city back so not all starting gear, etc, was available at the start?
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Sean McCarthy
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meziemer wrote:
Second, we're nearly done the campaign and I want to get to use these challenges. These challenges are just the thing to strive for when we run out of campaign to drive continued play and to push for further unlocks. I don't want to waste them all with previous plays, I want to do them now.


Hm, I see. Here's what I imagine it would look like if you started the campaign using Prosperity Plus from the beginning:

1 - First you do the easiest challenges.
2 - Easiest challenges run out and you do the harder challenges.
3 - 40 scenarios into the campaign, now you're out of checkboxes on challenges. You start doing the challenges at +1 difficulty. You're now picking whichever one you think is easiest or most fun or most appropriate to that scenario and those characters.

So you see, in your position, I would expect you've already "used up" all your challenges and now need to play at +1 difficulty for the remainder of the campaign if you want to earn more bonus prosperity. At the same time, I expect that you've unlocked enough bonuses and gained enough experience that doing this is in fact possible and you appreciate the extra difficulty!


Quote:
On that note, as a conversion, it felt kind of tough on us. It's a neat idea getting to unlock some content with each tick of Prosperity but it does feel like it takes quite a bit longer to get there.


I'm not quite sure what you mean here; maybe you mean it feels like you don't have enough unlocked? I guess I think that's entirely because you didn't take 1 prosperity per previous scenario in the campaign like I suggested. Isn't this problem just solved by doing that?

I guess that if you're already late in the campaign, this isn't a very meaningful variant since you don't get to use it very much. Maybe a conversion works better if you're only 20 scenarios in. It's certainly designed to be played from the beginning. (Perhaps for a second playthrough of the campaign!)

Quote:
One suggestion, maybe adjust the city buildings to allow Prosperity Plus to start with access to all the same equipment and extras that regular Gloomhaven starts with. This will just speed up the Prosperity reward that small amount so it feels more like a reward.

What was your thinking for pushing the city back so not all starting gear, etc, was available at the start?


A couple things:

* I want the initial prosperity unlocks to be exciting! Something that helps with that is giving a lot of powerful options for what to do with initial prosperity. Do you want a second Goggles? Or maybe you want to unlock a new weapon...

* I hope for this variant to be a fun optimization and planning exercise for the players, and in service of that I want to put as much important useful stuff behind unlocks as possible. Now, starting with no items at all makes for boring initial games, but 1 copy of the starting items still gives you enough options in my opinion.

* I believe that in general, bigger parties (e.g. 4 rather than 2 players) have an easier time unlocking things (they will retire more characters, and they will earn more total money that can be spent in various ways...). Requiring extra unlocks for additional copies of items is a small way to charge bigger parties more - smaller parties can get away with not taking multiple copies of items for longer.
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Matt Ziemer
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Hi Sean

I get what your saying. It really does make sense and it's obvious you've put a lot of consideration into it. That's why I wanted to ask what your thinking was.

I strongly agree that Prosperity Plus seems like it would work the best as it is designed, to be used from the start. I really like the idea so wanted to try contribute where I could, which in my case is trying out a conversion. I think your right though, and a better idea may be start over with Prosperity Plus instead.

I also really like your advise to just continue with the infinity challenged at plus 1 difficulty while using up the checks for previous plays. I kmew that was an option but it didn't feel like an option until you said it.

It may work better for an earlier conversion but either way, using it from the start appears to be the way to go.
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Sean McCarthy
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Thanks for the feedback, especially from Matt.

I uploaded a new version with a few tweaks:

Challenges:

* Simplified Deadly Remains by just making the coins be treated as hazardous terrain rather than weird traps, and changed it to allow coins to be looted (like normal coins instead of when they do damage).

* Reduced the difficulty on Berserk by making one of the 2 ability cards for each monster type be revealed before players choose their cards.

Buildings:

* Reduced power level of many city building checkboxes that flat out give you stuff rather than unlocking stuff, mostly on the Crooked Bone.

* Replaced an ability on the Crooked Bone that did nothing (due to my misunderstanding of the rules about enhancing previously enhanced cards) with two new ones.

* Changed the double checkbox ability on each of the four artisan buildings to require level 4 or 5 of that artisan (whichever of the two only unlocks one new item instead of two).
 
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Aaron Deemer
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I love this concept. I'm definitely trying out this system, and hope more people follow your lead in creating well balanced "mods" to the core Gloomhaven experience.

Oh, also, it might be nice to have additional challenges for situations where some of them are not appropriate. A group of 4 players can't ever run Outnumbered, and a solo player shouldn't take Chaos. Perhaps at the beginning of a campaign, 8 challenges could be chosen from a larger pool.


Challenge Ideas:
Late Sleeper - At the beginning of the scenario, each player shuffles their available unlocked ability cards and draws a number of them equal to their handsize. This is their starting hand.

Flexibility - At the beginning of each round, each player chooses three ability cards at random. They must play two of the chosen cards this turn.

Scatterbrained - At the beginning of each round, each player chooses two ability cards at random. They must play the chosen cards this turn.


Building Upgrades:
Jack of All Trades - When leveling up, a character may add one card from another unlocked class to their pool of available ability cards. This card must be 2 levels lower than the slot used to add it.

Note: This one should probably be an either-or with Strange Medicine.


One more idea; characters eventually finished all their Battle Goal checks, either from completing 6 sets of 3 or from having every perk already taken. When this happens, there's little incentive to pursue Battle Goals. What about gaining an extra point of prosperity for each 6xC checks a party gains?
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Nathan Holmes
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Really loving the idea of this variant and I imagine we'll be using it on our second campaign.

Just having a quick glance through the materials, "Referral Program" on the tailor seems very underwhelming. Each level of the tavern upgrade is automatically 5 times as powerful as it, even disregarding the benefit of not having to level up. (Characters start with 15(L+1) gold on creation.) Maybe 3*L would be a bit more impactful?
 
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Sean McCarthy
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ZFundamental wrote:
Really loving the idea of this variant and I imagine we'll be using it on our second campaign.

Just having a quick glance through the materials, "Referral Program" on the tailor seems very underwhelming. Each level of the tavern upgrade is automatically 5 times as powerful as it, even disregarding the benefit of not having to level up. (Characters start with 15(L+1) gold on creation.) Maybe 3*L would be a bit more impactful?


You're convincing me that tavern levels are too cheap. I think a lot of other things have comparable power level to referral program.
 
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Nathan Holmes
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SevenSpirits wrote:
ZFundamental wrote:
Really loving the idea of this variant and I imagine we'll be using it on our second campaign.

Just having a quick glance through the materials, "Referral Program" on the tailor seems very underwhelming. Each level of the tavern upgrade is automatically 5 times as powerful as it, even disregarding the benefit of not having to level up. (Characters start with 15(L+1) gold on creation.) Maybe 3*L would be a bit more impactful?


You're convincing me that tavern levels are too cheap. I think a lot of other things have comparable power level to referral program.


Actually, that might be a good point. I was considering that a campaign using this system would probably progress quite quickly by taking initially long retirement goals and going for high-level new characters before even the first retirement.
 
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Berney P.
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We just finished our first campaign (vanilla) and started a campaign with this mod.

So far, after four scenarios played (and three completed) we've used Chaos twice. At level 1, +1 difficulty is daunting to the other player, though I keep pushing for it since it gives bonus gold and XP.

We're playing with two classes we never played in the last campaign (Scoundrel and Brute).
 
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Nicolau Tudela
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Yenreb wrote:
We just finished our first campaign (vanilla) and started a campaign with this mod.

So far, after four scenarios played (and three completed) we've used Chaos twice. At level 1, +1 difficulty is daunting to the other player, though I keep pushing for it since it gives bonus gold and XP.

We're playing with two classes we never played in the last campaign (Scoundrel and Brute).


Let us know how is it going and how are you liking it. Very curious and interested in this mod.
 
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Tom W -
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