Derek de Soto
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I am curious what people think about this game. It seems more like a historical wargame than a fantasy wargame. For Fantasy, I think of things like Age of Sigmar or the new Runewars Minis game from Fantasy Flight.

With "Fantasy" you have an unlimited amount of things you can add. Meaning demons, monsters, beasts, giants, skeletons, vampires, etc., whatever you want.

Do you think a historical mini game will get 'stale' more quickly. You can only add so many soldiers, bowman, lancers, cavalry, etc., before it kind of feels like it has stalled out at a certain point.

 
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Team Ski
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In the end, all skirmish games are going to wear out. You end up moving stands towards each other and then roll dice. You can make it as fantasy or sci-fi as you want, but the truth is, is that there is little to separate games like Ice & Fire and Warhammer. The pieces are different, but the game is basically the same how ever you dress it up. Most of these games have little in strategy other than the choice of forces. Just my personal opinion.......

-Ski
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Barry Miller
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If you don't mind me saying, the wording of the thread's subject is a bit odd, only in the sense that the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series is fantasy.

But after reading your entire OP, I see what you're getting at.

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Derek de Soto
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bgm1961 wrote:

If you don't mind me saying, the wording of the thread's subject is a bit odd, only in the sense that the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series is fantasy.

But after reading your entire OP, I see what you're getting at.



Yeah, I couldn't figure out how to word it better. LoL.
 
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Derek de Soto
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Teamski wrote:
In the end, all skirmish games are going to wear out. You end up moving stands towards each other and then roll dice. You can make it as fantasy or sci-fi as you want, but the truth is, is that there is little to separate games like Ice & Fire and Warhammer. The pieces are different, but the game is basically the same how ever you dress it up. Most of these games have little in strategy other than the choice of forces. Just my personal opinion.......

-Ski


Hi Ski,

Let me start by saying I am in NO way saying Warhammer is a better game. I personally don't like the new Age of Sigmar. But the overall point is that no matter how many armies/units you make for a Game of Thrones game, it isn't going to have as many armies/units as a "fantasy" wargame. There are dozens of armies in warhammer, each with dozens of units and dozens of options to play them differently.

I have played Warhammer in the past. I had a Dwarf army and when I got tired of them I made a Tomb Kings army. I could easily have made more armies after that, but moved, didn't have anyone to play with, etc.

I guess I am mostly trying to decide on how well the replay-ability of this game will be in years to come. If you play for a year and get tired of your army, the other armies are pretty much going to offer you the same thing?
 
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Barry Miller
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As with most wargames that use the same units in most every game, the variability comes with the scenario, doesn't it? IOW, it's the differing scenarios, along with their differing goals and objectives, and orders of battle, that changes things up and keeps each game fresh.

It's like saying that Chess gets stale because you play with the same "units" every single game!


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Christian Busch

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What I see keeping Song of Ice & Fire from going stale due to the low fantasy setting is the way they have done commanders and the NCU figures. Everything goes stale eventually but as long they keep mechanics fresh in the troops they offer and what NCU's can do, I see the game being pretty rich.

What won't be helped is if you mean from an aesthetic perspective. If you quickly tire of seeing mounted dudes vs dudes with sticks vs dudes with bows, then it may not have enough visual variety to keep you interested.
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I'm hoping we will see more variety in the upcoming armies. I would imagine Dothraki all on horses would feel much different than rank and file Unsullied with spears or pikes.

The Night's Watch and Wildlings shown off should also look and play quite a bit different than the Lannister's and Starks. We might even see some fantasy creatures with them like the giants...
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Stuart Holttum
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ObviouslyDerek wrote:

With "Fantasy" you have an unlimited amount of things you can add. Meaning demons, monsters, beasts, giants, skeletons, vampires, etc., whatever you want.


Yes and no.....

Yes, with fantasy you CAN add all kinds of pretty things. However: unless they want the rules to become horribly unwieldy, the designers have to put them into a particular category: for example, in Warhammer you have infantry, cavalry, fast cavalry, monsters, and pretty much every piece falls into one of those camps (albeit with some particular rules for weapons).

So ultimately, your skeleton warriors will not end up being THAT much different from your opponent's unit of Chaos Warriors. They will attack and defend in the same way (calculate dice, roll attacks/hits/saves) with maybe a couple wrinkles - but ultimately "Grunts are Grunts".

Personally, what stops a game getting stale for me is if the core rules and troops lead naturally to tense and close games. If keeping the game "fresh" relies on (essentially) buying new "skins" for my troops every three months, then that suggests that the game system itself is poor.

Remains to be seen whether ASoI&F rules will stand up to repeated play, but certainly there is no reason a "historical" should itself get stale more quickly - after all, there are players who have been fighting Napoleonics. Ancients, ACW, ECW, et al for decades who are still more than happy with the same troops!
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Derek de Soto
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Everyone is making great points here. Thanks for the feedback. I am hoping they really spend some time on scenarios, that is going to be a real life saver for longevity with this game.
 
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Nicolas Tremblay
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I think people really need to have more faith in the designers than defaulting to "everything is just going to be the same" or that there aren't any options.

In the Kickstarter we've already seen ten different units that all play differently from each other, and this isn't touching on how they are modified by attachments and commanders.

Plus they already said the expectation was 10+ unique units per faction. Onto the topic of scenarios, they already showed the five "generic" ones in the starter set and even just those look to have lots of replayability by themselves.
 
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Its a matter of how solid the core mechanics are. If a game is well done, then there are limitless ways you can create effects to "break the rules"/"add rules", or mess with the mechanics in order to create unique types/factions. The origin of how that unit/faction messed with the rules, whether it be magic,politics,military skill, etc., has no difference, it is just theme layered on top of the added depth to the mechanics. With this game, one could argue that that due to the added layer of the tactics board (behind the scenes politics), and the tactics deck, the ability to produce fresh, exciting, and different units/houses is incredibly easy, and will not be a problem doing so for a very long time. The hardest part is keeping it balanced. Cheers.
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Simon Barnes
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I could imagine a "Mighty Empires" type expansion really spicing things up.
 
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Teamski wrote:
In the end, all skirmish games are going to wear out. You end up moving stands towards each other and then roll dice. You can make it as fantasy or sci-fi as you want, but the truth is, is that there is little to separate games like Ice & Fire and Warhammer. The pieces are different, but the game is basically the same how ever you dress it up. Most of these games have little in strategy other than the choice of forces. Just my personal opinion.......

-Ski


Force selection is absolutely important, but maneuvering on the table is equally important in most games as you will lose with a powerful army if you dont know how to use it.

AoS for example is heavily dependent on force selection (as you mention) but also on-table synergies that will require you to move and position correctly, as well as know what and where to attack to reduce your opponents synergies. Fail at this and it doesnt matter what you bring to the table.

I dont play AoS myself but i can recognize that it, as with most games, is still a game that offers and requires a lot of strategy to be successful, its not only about force selection.

Asoiaf too, it has less synergies dependant on aura effects but the tactic cards and NCU units will require good maneuvering on the table to be of good effect and the player best able to set this up will be the obe who wins.


Only my opinions of course but I just found it a bit short to state that games like this doesnt require strategy. They do, maybe not the kind of strategy you prefer and surely not everyone will enjoy it, but strategy nonetheless.
 
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