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Subject: Deal Restrictions (Twilight Imperium 4th Edition) rss

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Melissa Makak
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I have never played Twilight Imperium before and just got Twilight Imperium 4th Edition. I am confused about deals. What are the restrictions of a deal (aside from binding and nonbinding)? Can it be pretty much anything you come up with? Can it constitute breaking the rules of the game? Does anyone have any examples?
 
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Badoux Jerome
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The rules are a bit confusing as we don't really know what is considered into the word "deal" ... therefore we did our own interpretation of the rules.
 
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Joao Rodrigues
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acording to the Rules Reference Guide, it can be whatever you want. I don't know what you assume would be breaking the rules of the game... but the way I see it you can offer trade goods if they don't attack you, you can say you will not get on a system they want if they give a promissory note, you can ask them to attack someone else for X ammount of trade goods, you can pay someone that is activating your system in order for them to activate another system, and something like that.

EDIT: You can also ask them to bring you a beer and then you won't invade his planet... or you can say you'll take their dog for a walk if they let you pick a certain strategy card... all is valid, but it is all on the rules, so it is not breaking the rules, I guess.
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Joao Rodrigues
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RRG Page 11 wrote:
27 - DEALS
A deal is an agreement between two players that may or may not
include a transaction that involves physical components.

27.1 Players can make deals with each other at any time, even
if they are not neighbors. However, deals that include a
transaction must follow the rules for transactions, including that
the players be neighbors.

27.2 Deals are binding or non-binding according to the conditions of
the deal.

27.3 If the terms of a deal can be resolved immediately, it is a
binding deal. When a deal is binding, a player must adhere to
the terms of the agreement and whatever transactions, if any,
were agreed upon.

27.4 If the terms of a deal cannot be resolved immediately, it is a nonbinding
deal. When a deal is non-binding, a player does not have
to adhere to any part of the agreement if he chooses not to.
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Joao Rodrigues
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starbuck7660 wrote:
Yea they give very little information on it. My group will probably do the same.

I don't think it is little information... RRG is good enough for me.
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Badoux Jerome
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Johnnymaxx wrote:
starbuck7660 wrote:
Yea they give very little information on it. My group will probably do the same.

I don't think it is little information... RRG is good enough for me.


You can do only one deal per turn per player, but is setting an agreement is a deal? (if yes you have to shut up most of the game and that sucks) or is a deal if there is a physical exchange of commodities / trade / goods and/ or promissory notes?...

That is not said in the rules and that is why it is quite confusing.
 
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Melissa Makak
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Johnnymaxx wrote:
acording to the Rules Reference Guide, it can be whatever you want. I don't know what you assume would be breaking the rules of the game... but the way I see it you can offer trade goods if they don't attack you, you can say you will not get on a system they want if they give a promissory note, you can ask them to attack someone else for X ammount of trade goods, you can pay someone that is activating your system in order for them to activate another system, and something like that.

EDIT: You can also ask them to bring you a beer and then you won't invade his planet... or you can say you'll take their dog for a walk if they let you pick a certain strategy card... all is valid, but it is all on the rules, so it is not breaking the rules, I guess.



Haha ok I see. So, for example, can I pass through someone's system and make a deal with them to not attack each other? I know in the rules it says that we would go into combat. That is kind of what I meant by "breaking the rules"
 
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Melissa Makak
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Agone07 wrote:
Johnnymaxx wrote:
starbuck7660 wrote:
Yea they give very little information on it. My group will probably do the same.

I don't think it is little information... RRG is good enough for me.


You can do only one deal per turn per player, but is setting an agreement is a deal? (if yes you have to shut up most of the game and that sucks) or is a deal if there is a physical exchange of commodities / trade / goods and/ or promissory notes?...

That is not said in the rules and that is why it is quite confusing.


I think a deal is just an agreement and does not always need a transaction of trade goods and promissory notes, but it could have one and then would follow the rules of a transaction.
 
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Peter Walsh
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Agone07 wrote:
Johnnymaxx wrote:
starbuck7660 wrote:
Yea they give very little information on it. My group will probably do the same.

I don't think it is little information... RRG is good enough for me.


You can do only one deal per turn per player, but is setting an agreement is a deal? (if yes you have to shut up most of the game and that sucks) or is a deal if there is a physical exchange of commodities / trade / goods and/ or promissory notes?...

That is not said in the rules and that is why it is quite confusing.


It is stated in the rules. There is a difference between a "Deal" and a "Transaction". Deals are relatively weak constructs unless they are associated with a Transaction. You can make deals with anyone at anytime as often as desired. Within that structure you can make one *transaction* involving the exchange of TGs, Commodities or PNs per neighbor per round. It's only confusing when the terms "deal" and "transaction" are used interchangeably.
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Pete Walsh wrote:
It is stated in the rules. There is a difference between a "Deal" and a "Transaction".


Pete has the correct answer here. Deals are unlimited and are almost always non-binding. Transactions are a type of deal, that involves a physical item changing hands, requires neighbors, and are limited to one per player-pairing per turn.

As far as breaking the game rules, deals do not let you do this.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yep, definitely no breaking of the rules. You can’t decide to just give away VPS for example, or trade Trchnologies or anything else not specified as legal.

Deals are just mentioned to show you are allowed to diplomatically make agreements with each other, in other words, legalising table talk.

Be very careful to understand the differences between deals and transactions as specified above. Transactions are limited to once per turn, but deals are not.

You can have a deal with or without a transaction and can even have a trsnsaction without a deal.
 
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Clayton Threadgill
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IncrediSteve wrote:
As far as breaking the game rules, deals do not let you do this.

Right, because cheating is still cheating even if another player asked you to do it.

Also note that making deals involving anything outside the game like:
- bring me a drink and I'll give you 2 trade goods
- use your strategy card this turn or I'll stop the game for half an hour
- attack this system and I'll give you $5
- invade Mecatol Rex and you'll be sleeping on the couch tonight

... is clearly meta-gaming, and while it isn't illegal it is bad gamesmanship.
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Melissa Makak
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hooliganj wrote:
IncrediSteve wrote:
As far as breaking the game rules, deals do not let you do this.

Right, because cheating is still cheating even if another player asked you to do it.

Also note that making deals involving anything outside the game like:
- bring me a drink and I'll give you 2 trade goods
- use your strategy card this turn or I'll stop the game for half an hour
- attack this system and I'll give you $5
- invade Mecatol Rex and you'll be sleeping on the couch tonight

... is clearly meta-gaming, and while it isn't illegal it is bad gamesmanship.


Ok thank you. I had gotten confused because the example used in the rulebook stated that you can make a deal with someone to not use their PDS's space cannon ability against you when moving through their system, but now I see that the player does not actually have to use their space cannon if they do not want to, thus, not breaking the rules.
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Klaus T.
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Remember that deals says they can it can include a transaction that involves physical components.

And "83. Transaction" starts out with:

A transaction is a way for a player to exchange commodities, trade goods, and promissory notes.


So offering somebody $5 (or whatever other physical component) would not be within the allowed transaction. Besides, it would be meta-gaming and bad gamesmanship as someone else mentions
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- Could one player ask another player for Command Counters as payment for a deal/transaction if they do not have trade goods/commodities to pay with?

- Could you ask to see, or swap secret objectives with each other?
 
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Klaus T.
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I would say no, to all of the above.

I believe commodities and promissory notes are the only physical component eligible for transactions.

And your secret objetive is, well, secret. I think it even says somewhere you should not show it, or something like that.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The rule on what can be transacted is quite clear:
RRG - Transactions wrote:
83.3 Players can exchange commodities, trade goods and promissory notes, but cannot exchange other types of cards or tokens.
• The Emirates of Hacan can also exchange action cards with other players as part a transactions.

Yes, there's a small typo at the end there, but it does nothing to muddy the waters.

Commodities, trade goods and a single promissory note per transaction is it if neither party is Hacan. Hacan add action cards to the list but nothing else.

Edit: And the deals shouldn't involve peeking at hidden cards either. The only hidden card type you are able to show to other players is the promissory note you intend to trade in a transaction (due to rules found only in the Learn to Play guide). Perhaps the Hacan deals should allow you to look at action cards too, but that isn't explicitly spelled out in the rules.
 
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Clipper wrote:
Perhaps the Hacan deals should allow you to look at action cards too, but that isn't explicitly spelled out in the rules.

For the ability to be worthwhile, I think that's definitely the implication. Forcing players to trade cards unseen would render the ability too erratic and volatile to be useful.

For what it's worth, a while ago I had asked Dane a bunch of questions, and did get a relevant response to showing action cards to others:

My Question
Can you choose to reveal (to an individual or everyone) an Action Card from your hand without actually playing it?

Dane's Answer
Tabletop etiquette is something you may want to discuss with your individual group. There are no rules preventing players from showing an an action card from their hand.
 
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Clayton Threadgill
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For what it's worth, the learn to play guide says "Each player begins the game with one secret objective that he may look at but must keep hidden from other players." However, there is no longer any penalty for accidentally disclosing your secret objective to another player.

So you can discuss secret objective all you want, as long as you don't show the card. If your group prefers the absolute secrecy required in TI3, you might want to consider a house-rule.
 
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hooliganj wrote:
For what it's worth, the learn to play guide says "Each player begins the game with one secret objective that he may look at but must keep hidden from other players." However, there is no longer any penalty for accidentally disclosing your secret objective to another player.

So you can discuss secret objective all you want, as long as you don't show the card. If your group prefers the absolute secrecy required in TI3, you might want to consider a house-rule.

Strictly speaking, TI3's prohibition was only on REVEALING it. While that could be open to interpretation, I would look at that as actually showing it. It was perfectly legit to bluff and "talk about" your objective without penalty, because you could be lying.

Granted, there's usually no reason to disclose it verbally anyway, usually the bluffing was via action, not words (IE, feigning Keeper of Gates when in reality you were going for Focused, for example).
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yeah, I didn't want to imply that discussion was forbidden.

It's interesting to have the ruling that flashing action cards is up to table etiquette, making it really up to your group whether you allow it.

Personally, I like the concept of enforcing the cards remain hidden, unless they are to be involved in a transaction. This takes both the secrecy rule of Secret Objectives and the trade rule of Promissory Notes from the Learn to Play booklet and applies them to all cards mentioned to be hidden (Secret Objectives, Action Cards and Promissory Notes). This is the stance I will prefer in my groups, although I will certainly discuss it before the game.

 
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Daniel Beauley
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Clipper wrote:
Yeah, I didn't want to imply that discussion was forbidden.

It's interesting to have the ruling that flashing action cards is up to table etiquette, making it really up to your group whether you allow it.


In the Rules Ref:

2.5 "A player's action cards remain hidden from other players until they are played."

But, a little frustratingly,

60.6 "Players should keep their hands of promissory notes hidden." [Bold is mine.]

Clearly, in the interest of deal/transaction brevity, players could be allowed to show Promissory Note (or Action Card, if Hacan is involved) to the other player involved. Beyond that, they should only be revealed when activated/played. Each play group could use its collective judgement to relax those restrictions, of course.
 
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The ruling from Dane indicates that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with showing your action cards to another player. The rule in the book is to say that they aren't "public knowledge", but it's perfectly OK to show them to other players at any time. Usually you won't WANT to, but when plotting with another player, sometimes showing a card can help. "Don't worry about that, I've got THIS card that will help out."
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The Learn to Play guide indicates you can show your Promissory notes when trading them and implies this is the only way to show them to others. This rule is missing from the RRG, but is not overridden by it, so it does apply. Hence, you can show others your PNs, but only while negotiating a transaction.

The brilliance of this is you can trade PNs without the other players knowing what you are trading. I find it works quite nicely, and allows you the opportunity to trade a different player's PN you have received previously without the original player's knowledge. That hasn't happened in a game I've played yet, but it could happen.

This is the rule I enforce in my groups and it seems to work just fine. Hacan allows the same to happen to Action cards. Enforcing that Action cards remain hidden otherwise allows a player to bluff which card/s they are holding. If you allow just anyone to show you cards, it's impossible to threaten with a bluff, and I would miss that aspect.

Edit: But yes, if you don't care for the ability to bluff, feel free to use the alternate table rules of showing cards.
 
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