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The Castles of Burgundy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Knowledge tile combo - #8 and #11 rss

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Jason Paterson
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Tile #8 allows you to use a worker tile as +2/-2.

Tile #11 gives you the ability to place castle, knowledge, or mine tiles with a +1/-1 modifier. This is explained in the rulebook "as though you played a worker tile".

When you use the effect of #11, do you also impart the effect of #8, making it +2/-2 to place one of those tiles, without using an actual worker tile?

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Marc McConley
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Nope, they are separate things. So, you get up to +1/-1 for placing that type of building all the time. You could also use a worker to get an additional +2/-2.
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Jason Paterson
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DominionFamily wrote:
Nope, they are separate things. So, you get up to +1/-1 for placing that type of building all the time. You could also use a worker to get an additional +2/-2.

I did a not-so-ninja edit.

Assertion here was that the rulebook says "as though you played a worker tile" for #11. Since #8 was on their board and modifies worker tiles, player wants to know if #11's effect would be automatically adjusted to +2/-2 instead of +1/-1, without the use of an actual worker tile.
 
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Joe Williams
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I've interpreted this the same as the initial reply. It would still only be +/-1 for that type of building. Only the workers give you +/-2 with the other tile. Hope this helps!
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Marc McConley
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joephes wrote:
I've interpreted this the same as the initial reply. It would still only be +/-1 for that type of building. Only the workers give you +/-2 with the other tile. Hope this helps!


Yup, I think it is still this way. I think the "as if you played a worker tile" is only meant as a clarification (even though maybe it ended up making it less clear in this case). For example, this tells you that you can use a die showing 6 to place on a 1 space, or a die showing 1 to place on a 6 space.
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Steve C
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I think a rephrase needs to be restated here...the two knowledge tiles apply to two different things.

------------------------------------------------------

#8 applies to changing your die number with use of a worker.

So if you have a 6 die, a worker can change die to 4,5 or 1,2

---------------------------------------------------

#11 applies to changing the number needed to place on map/mat.

So if number on your map/mat is a 3 for a mine, the 11 knowledge tile make the number needed to place a 2,3, or 4.
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Mathias N
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Tile #8 only allows to modify a worker tile by +/-2, not other tiles like #11. I agree, that the description of tile #11 in the rulebook is a little ambiguos in this case. I guess, the additive 'as though you played a worker tile' is an example to get that issue more clearer in reading the rules for the first time to understand, how theses tiles will work.
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Jason Paterson
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cirdan wrote:
Tile #8 only allows to modify a worker tile by +/-2, not other tiles like #11. I agree, that the description of tile #11 in the rulebook is a little ambiguos in this case. I guess, the additive 'as though you played a worker tile' is an example to get that issue more clearer in reading the rules for the first time to understand, how theses tiles will work.

That was my understanding as well, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't alone in this interpretation.
 
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Jay M
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nakedmeeple wrote:
cirdan wrote:
Tile #8 only allows to modify a worker tile by +/-2, not other tiles like #11. I agree, that the description of tile #11 in the rulebook is a little ambiguos in this case. I guess, the additive 'as though you played a worker tile' is an example to get that issue more clearer in reading the rules for the first time to understand, how theses tiles will work.

That was my understanding as well, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't alone in this interpretation.


I think you've found a true issue -- to me, the intent is that the effects don't stack. But the words on the page would mean that they do. "As if you played a worker tile," if carried out literally, would modify it the doubled amount.

Some games do chain things that way. In this case, I don't think they intended that.
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Jeff Heikkinen
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Some game rules are meant to be read in the very literal way that would make things like the #11 tile give +2/-2 in this situation. Magic: the Gathering is my go-to example. But given all the awkwardly-translated things in the rulebook for this game, it's pretty clear CoB is not one of those games. Even if the original rules in French or German or whatever were written with that kind of rigour, it clearly didn't survive the translation process. Arguments based on fine nuances of an ultra-literal reading of the English rules are not the way to go here.

(It's hard to explain how to tell which type of rulebook you're looking at, but I know it when I see it. There's a certain precision of language and logic of rules construction that you see in some rulesets and not others.)

I'm pretty sure each of these bonuses is only meant to apply to the specific situation it specifically mentions, however an ultra-literal reading of the translated rules might theoretically shake out.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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"As if you played a worker tile" - the implied and therefore missing text is; ", without actually having played one."
The given text instructs you to follow the mechanic or method of using a worker tile when making the modification allowed by tile #11. It does not instruct you, even literally, to actually use a worker tile. You can place a tile "as if you played a worker tile", without actually having played one.
 
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Jeff Heikkinen
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I don't agree (though more importantly, it doesn't matter, for reasons given in my previous post - this is kind of an academic discussion ).

To me, "as if you had played a worker tile", read absolutely literally, means "with exactly the same effect playing a worker tile would have". Under the circumstances described in the OP, a worker tile would give +/- 2, not +/- 1. Therefore, at least in an ultra-literal game like Magic, the wording involved would mean +/- 2 in this particular situation.

(But this is not an ultra-literal game like Magic, as I said earlier - even if it was in its original language, it sure as hell isn't given the English rulebook. So a looser interpretation like yours almost certainly is the correct one. I merely insist on recognizing that it is still a looser use of language, even if it gets the right answer in this case.)
 
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James Patterson
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Tile #11 modifies the site you are playing to. If a castle requires a 5, you can use either a 5, 4, or 6 if you have knowledge tile 11. The "as if you had played a worker" is an explanatory note, but no workers are actually involved.

Tile #8 modifies the ability of the worker to change the die roll by up to +-2. If you had both tiles, you could meet the requirement of a 5 building site with a 5, 4, or 6 without spending a worker, or a 1, 2, or 3 by spending a worker. (The worker turns the 2 into a 4, and tile 11 allows a 4 to build a castle on a site that requires a 5.)
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Chuck Hurd
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purpleplatypus wrote:
To me, "as if you had played a worker tile", read absolutely literally, means "with exactly the same effect playing a worker tile would have"...

Correct, but without actually having played one
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Jason Paterson
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Carcking wrote:
purpleplatypus wrote:
To me, "as if you had played a worker tile", read absolutely literally, means "with exactly the same effect playing a worker tile would have"...

Correct, but without actually having played one

Right! I think that was the crux for us. The "as if you had played a worker" is a matter of example, and the other tile would only trigger if you had actually played a worker tile. That's how we proceeded, and I think that's how it's meant to be taken. At least, until Stefan joins us to clarify.

 
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