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Subject: Tinkerer Flamethrower (bottom half) rss

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Darren Nakamura
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I can see two ways this works:

1. The Tinkerer uses it on his turn, and all allies adjacent to him at that time gain 1 shield. Maybe put a player token on his card to remember. They can then move away from the Tinkerer and still maintain that shield for the rest of the round.
2. Any time an ally is attacked and it is adjacent to the Tinkerer at the time of the attack, it gains 1 shield. This means an ally could have been nonadjacent to the Tinkerer at the time Flamethrower was used, move adjacent to him, and then gain the benefit for attacks later in the round.

Which one is correct?
 
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Steffen Messing
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Shield is gained when the card is played and so it's 1.
 
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Mauro Moura
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Hey_Yo wrote:
Shield is gained when the card is played and so it's 1.


This is wrong, this card is covered in the FAQs, this works like an aura, anyone not adjacent to you at any point, even after the card was used, won't get the benefit. The same is true for pretty much any other card that is worded like this (there are quite a few, granting shield, retaliate, extra damage to attacks etc).

The official rulling, therefore, is that it works as OP's option 2.

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Jay Johnson
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according to the "Official FAQ":
Quote:
Flamethrower (Card 032):
The bottom effect applies to allies only while they are adjacent to you (like an aura), not allies adjacent to you at the time this action was performed.
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John S
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I think it should be #2 and of course any time after the tinkerer's turn. I imagine the tinkerer would have a device that emits an aura that allies can move in and out of so they would have to be adjacent at the time of the attack.
 
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Steffen Messing
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DakonBlackblade wrote:
Hey_Yo wrote:
Shield is gained when the card is played and so it's 1.


This is wrong, this card is covered in the FAQs, this works like an aura, anyone not adjacent to you at any point, even after the card was used, won't get the benefit. The same is true for pretty much any other card that is worded like this (there are quite a few, granting shield, retaliate, extra damage to attacks etc).

The official rulling, therefore, is that it works as OP's option 2.



Never even thought about it could be anything else than 1 considering the rulebook :-o. Need to make sure to get this right for the future, thanks.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Oh, duh. I did a forum search but didn't check the FAQ.
 
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Mauro Moura
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Hey_Yo wrote:


Never even thought about it could be anything else than 1 considering the rulebook :-o. Need to make sure to get this right for the future, thanks.


To be honest, without the FAQ everyone assumes it works like 1, this is not realy clear in the rulesbook.
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Jussi-Pekka Jokinen
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They could just add "...as an aura effect." to these cards and it'd suddenly become much clearer.
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Math and Games With Margaret
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I have been playing it as 1 as well. Interestingly it was only useful when 2 could have been applied.
 
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Jared Heath
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IMHO its kinda a poor card on bottom, at least with my party.

The init on it is low, and the tinker has trouble going before my scoundrel and mt with other cards.

Highly situational. The top is a great get out of jail free card if the tinker gets in bad position.

But my tinker NEVER is in a position to use this card. Something has gone horribly wrong if he is.
 
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Bjorn B
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It is an active card, which means the condition needs to be fullfilled when the effect is taken. The effect of shields are only used while being attacked. There is no way provided to track who was adjacent when the condition came up.

Shield isn't a condition like invisible, where the effect is to grant a invisible token. And then the ability card is removed from play.

Combining this, when it would have been option 1, there would have been shield tokens.
 
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Jukka
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Yup, it works like an aura. Another interesting question about the card is enhancing the bottom half. If I add Strengthen, is it also an aura? And what about Bless?

As far as I understand it, both give the effect to adjacent allies when you cast it (no need to stay close), but it kinda makes the card confusing.
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Darren Nakamura
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I'd guess you can't add Strengthen or Bless to it. The rules for those specific enhancements are "Can be placed on any main ability line that
targets allies or yourself." This doesn't target allies, it affects allies. I think you'd only be able to put a +1 or an elemental infusion on it.
 
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Per Erlandsson
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Hey_Yo wrote:
DakonBlackblade wrote:
Hey_Yo wrote:
Shield is gained when the card is played and so it's 1.


This is wrong, this card is covered in the FAQs, this works like an aura, anyone not adjacent to you at any point, even after the card was used, won't get the benefit. The same is true for pretty much any other card that is worded like this (there are quite a few, granting shield, retaliate, extra damage to attacks etc).

The official rulling, therefore, is that it works as OP's option 2.



Never even thought about it could be anything else than 1 considering the rulebook :-o. Need to make sure to get this right for the future, thanks.

There are no "persistent buffs" in Gloomhaven unless there is an active card providing it! In other words there is no way to track getting AOE buffed and then moving away, so the mechanic does not exist unless the "buff" is a condition like Strengthen!
 
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Per Erlandsson
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Dexter345 wrote:
I'd guess you can't add Strengthen or Bless to it. The rules for enhancements are "Can be placed on any main ability line that
targets allies or yourself." This doesn't target allies, it affects allies. I think you'd only be able to put a +1 or an elemental infusion on it.

+1 makes sence. Interestingly enough Bless/Strengthen is legal to enchance on the card, but since there are no Targets it won't do anything.
 
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Steffen Messing
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perer005 wrote:
Hey_Yo wrote:
DakonBlackblade wrote:
Hey_Yo wrote:
Shield is gained when the card is played and so it's 1.


This is wrong, this card is covered in the FAQs, this works like an aura, anyone not adjacent to you at any point, even after the card was used, won't get the benefit. The same is true for pretty much any other card that is worded like this (there are quite a few, granting shield, retaliate, extra damage to attacks etc).

The official rulling, therefore, is that it works as OP's option 2.



Never even thought about it could be anything else than 1 considering the rulebook :-o. Need to make sure to get this right for the future, thanks.

There are no "persistent buffs" in Gloomhaven unless there is an active card providing it! In other words there is no way to track getting AOE buffed and then moving away, so the mechanic does not exist unless the "buff" is a condition like Strengthen!


I always took a Tinkerer-token as a "condition-token" to keep track. So I found it easier to track this than to track spawned enemies. It also just lasts one round. But the idea after considering the condition-tokens makes sense and now I hopefully find it a lot easier to "remember" which cards are aura-effects and which aren't.
 
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Jukka
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Dexter345 wrote:
I'd guess you can't add Strengthen or Bless to it. The rules for those specific enhancements are "Can be placed on any main ability line that
targets allies or yourself." This doesn't target allies, it affects allies. I think you'd only be able to put a +1 or an elemental infusion on it.


I've asked this here before (https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1903417/tinkerer-level-1-ab...) and answers I got said that it'd just normally Strengthen or Bless adjacent allies (no aura-thingamagic) but I wasn't too convinced. Now I'd really like an official ruling.
 
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Robert Marney
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perer005 wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
I'd guess you can't add Strengthen or Bless to it. The rules for enhancements are "Can be placed on any main ability line that
targets allies or yourself." This doesn't target allies, it affects allies. I think you'd only be able to put a +1 or an elemental infusion on it.

+1 makes sence. Interestingly enough Bless/Strengthen is legal to enchance on the card, but since there are no Targets it won't do anything.


This card targets self as well as adjacent allies, so putting Bless on it would bless yourself, I think. Not as generous as it seems
 
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Jay Johnson
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Robyrt wrote:
perer005 wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
I'd guess you can't add Strengthen or Bless to it. The rules for enhancements are "Can be placed on any main ability line that
targets allies or yourself." This doesn't target allies, it affects allies. I think you'd only be able to put a +1 or an elemental infusion on it.

+1 makes sence. Interestingly enough Bless/Strengthen is legal to enchance on the card, but since there are no Targets it won't do anything.


This card targets self as well as adjacent allies, so putting Bless on it would bless yourself, I think. Not as generous as it seems

it doesn't "target", it "affects". There is a difference
 
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Chris Willott
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Is there?
p.21 wrote:
Note: Abilities can never target allies (positive abilities meant for allies will use the term “affect” instead of “target”).
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Mauro Moura
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Willottica wrote:
Is there?
p.21 wrote:
Note: Abilities can never target allies (positive abilities meant for allies will use the term “affect” instead of “target”).


This card is clearly not targeted, the ability is just on, affecting anyone withim its range, whenever someone leaves the area it is not affected anymore by the ability. You 100% cannot enhance this with a bless effect as it would not make any sense, how would that work, guy gets blessed while withim the range but when he leaves he has to remove the bless from his mod deck ?
 
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Fito R
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DakonBlackblade wrote:
Willottica wrote:
Is there?
p.21 wrote:
Note: Abilities can never target allies (positive abilities meant for allies will use the term “affect” instead of “target”).


This card is clearly not targeted, the ability is just on, affceting anyone withim its range, whenever someone leaves the area it is not affected anymore by the ability. You 100% cannot enhance this with a bless effect as it would not make any sense, how would that work, guy gets blessed while withim the range but when he leaves he has to remove the bless from his mod deck ?
For further clarification, this is the text on the Bless/Strengthen Enhancement
Page 46 wrote:
Can be placed on any main ability line that
affects allies or yourself. A “Move” ability
does not count as affecting yourself. The
specified condition is applied to all targets
of the ability.
It also uses the word targets, and yet the word "target" is never used on effects that affect allies. So in this case, we assume that it means "any ability that affects self or allies". Just like, you know, the very previous sentence in that paragraph.
 
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atog n
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I am sorry. I am still confused.

1) Can you put strengthed on flamethrower bottom?

2) If yes, what happens if you put strengthen on there?

3) Does it affect ally?

3a) Do I pay double for multi-target?
 
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Fito R
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atog wrote:
I am sorry. I am still confused.

1) Can you put strengthed on flamethrower bottom?

2) If yes, what happens if you put strengthen on there?

3) Does it affect ally?

3a) Do I pay double for multi-target?

Yes, you can put Strengthen/Bless. We know for certain that this would Strengthen or Bless yourself. We do not know for certain if allies would be affected. We do not know for certain if the ability is considered multi-target.
Isaac might know, but he hasn't popped in.
 
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