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Hello everyone,

I love Star Wars Rebellion but since I have been reading about the 'Rise of the Empire' expansion I have been thinking about how combat works.
I am not interested in getting the expansion at this time but I would like to streamline combat somewhat.

I am thinking about the following variant: what about getting rid of the tactics cards altogether, since in the basic game they are the same for the two players and I don't really see them having a purpose, besides adding more randomness and time to resolve combat.
Once cards are out of the picture, use dice only with expansion rules, i.e. using crossed lightsabers to block, and having leaders provide rerolls.

Any comments, e.g. did anybody try this before or can any expert player think why this would or would not be an interesting variant?

Many thanks!
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Clinton Rice
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So fighters can never hurt caps and caps can never hurt fighters?

The cards represent surprises and tactical adaptations, which are at the heart of so many great star wars battle scenes. Remove that and it's just dice rolling, with victory largely going to whoever brought more firepower to the party. At that point, you could probably eliminate the dice as well and just deal flat damage each round based on fleet size

It may be faster but it's certainly not better.
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KoalaXav wrote:
So fighters can never hurt caps and caps can never hurt fighters?


Thanks for the feedback.
A clarification: I have no green dice, so I would keep using original dice functions, except for changing double lightsabers to block damage. So the full hit roll would still allow to do either colour damage.
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Yan Bertrand
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If we want the same "feel" as the expansion (which might not be what we're after here - I'm not sure), how about letting players draw 1 tactics at the start of each theatre's battle turn?
(It'd get us into Empire/Rebels balance discussions, as is on-going in the expansion's forum, but it'd speed up things.)

As for speed-up, I have a feeling "just" removing the cards-drawing effect of the sabers should help.

(As a side-note, I'm still thinking on whether I'd like a no-dice-roll combat variant. I keep not liking dice all that much in this game. I don't know.)
 
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Cracky McCracken
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Appreciate your effott GD. Rebellion is a great game in spite of it's combat system.

There's no reason to beat a dead TaunTaun here, but what a shitty combat system. The output vs input is very bad.
 
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Gregg Saruwatari
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Teodosio wrote:
Hello everyone,

I love Star Wars Rebellion but since I have been reading about the 'Rise of the Empire' expansion I have been thinking about how combat works.
I am not interested in getting the expansion at this time but I would like to streamline combat somewhat.

I am thinking about the following variant: what about getting rid of the tactics cards altogether, since in the basic game they are the same for the two players and I don't really see them having a purpose, besides adding more randomness and time to resolve combat.
Once cards are out of the picture, use dice only with expansion rules, i.e. using crossed lightsabers to block, and having leaders provide rerolls.

Any comments, e.g. did anybody try this before or can any expert player think why this would or would not be an interesting variant?

Many thanks!


I have already gotten rid of the cards and I don't regret it at all. What a bunch of time waste for no more fun or impact on the results. Probably saves 30-60 minutes each game and makes it much more enjoyable. I disagree with the people who say cards add strategy to the dice. I normally hate dice, but the card draw of such narrow cards is atrocious and much more random than the dice.

So far I don't like any of the blocking rules as they also make the game take longer with no more excitement(there is always a fair chance for full misses, there is no need to simulate misses with more die rolling on the opponents side). I realize re-rolls become stronger without blocking so next time we are going to try:
No tactics cards
Gain re-rolls equal to your leaders combat value minus opponents leader value(for entire combat not each round).

Skill icon (lightsabers)do nothing in combat
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GrimThunderbrew wrote:
I have already gotten rid of the cards and I don't regret it at all. What a bunch of time waste for no more fun or impact on the results. Probably saves 30-60 minutes each game and makes it much more enjoyable. I disagree with the people who say cards add strategy to the dice. I normally hate dice, but the card draw of such narrow cards is atrocious and much more random than the dice.

My thoughts exactly. While in the expansion tactics cards provide some different effects (depending on which units you have), in the base game they just offer a few variants of "do damage, block damage".
Furthermore, while in the expansion you have a hand of cards and there is some strategy involved in choosing what to play, in the base game you just draw a random card. It is basically a layer of randomness on top of the basic randomness provided by the dice, with no apparent purpose.
If you believe axing them cuts playtime by at least 30 minutes, then I really look forward to play test.

GrimThunderbrew wrote:

So far I don't like any of the blocking rules as they also make the game take longer with no more excitement(there is always a fair chance for full misses, there is no need to simulate misses with more die rolling on the opponents side). I realize re-rolls become stronger without blocking so next time we are going to try:
No tactics cards
Gain re-rolls equal to your leaders combat value minus opponents leader value(for entire combat not each round).

Skill icon (lightsabers)do nothing in combat

In part I agree with you on blocking, in part I believe that just a little blocking (as provided by double lighsabers, 1/6 chance per die) could actually add some level of strategy by allowing the defending player some say on where damage is allocated. I.e. the active player directs how damage is dealt, but the other player can influence that a little bit, in case he/she wants to protect some kind of ships rather than others. But I am on the fence on this.
 
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Teodosio wrote:

In part I agree with you on blocking, in part I believe that just a little blocking (as provided by double lighsabers, 1/6 chance per die) could actually add some level of strategy by allowing the defending player some say on where damage is allocated. I.e. the active player directs how damage is dealt, but the other player can influence that a little bit, in case he/she wants to protect some kind of ships rather than others. But I am on the fence on this.



I like the idea. However, I see a potential timing conflict. Since you effectively share the same dice pool, it makes it more difficult. Without buying another dice set, which would be great if it was available. You would have to figure out how to mark blocked damage. Hey, I have enough shield tokens from X Wing or SW LCG, that I could make it work. That when you roll the double sabre, you can assign your shield token to a specific unit. Attacker always rolls first assigns shields that stay active for entire round, then clear after that round of combat. Using Leaders reroll ability that could be interesting. HMMMMM

I'm a fan of A&A and although that combat system is antiquated, I personally like more streamlined versions of dice rolling for combat. The OPS suggestion is good. Plus, I don't really need anyone's approval, other than my playgroup, to play how we want. There's no hall monitor or complex computer algorithim prohibiting allowing me to modify any game I want. Take Uno or Monopoly for example.
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jhcuatro wrote:
Teodosio wrote:

In part I agree with you on blocking, in part I believe that just a little blocking (as provided by double lighsabers, 1/6 chance per die) could actually add some level of strategy by allowing the defending player some say on where damage is allocated. I.e. the active player directs how damage is dealt, but the other player can influence that a little bit, in case he/she wants to protect some kind of ships rather than others. But I am on the fence on this.

Well you could use the sabers like the expansion does, only on "already assigned damage" (if there is any).

I like the idea. However, I see a potential timing conflict. Since you effectively share the same dice pool, it makes it more difficult. Without buying another dice set, which would be great if it was available. You would have to figure out how to mark blocked damage. Hey, I have enough shield tokens from X Wing or SW LCG, that I could make it work. That when you roll the double sabre, you can assign your shield token to a specific unit. Attacker always rolls first assigns shields that stay active for entire round, then clear after that round of combat. Using Leaders reroll ability that could be interesting. HMMMMM

I'm a fan of A&A and although that combat system is antiquated, I personally like more streamlined versions of dice rolling for combat. The OPS suggestion is good. Plus, I don't really need anyone's approval, other than my playgroup, to play how we want. There's no hall monitor or complex computer algorithim prohibiting allowing me to modify any game I want. Take Uno or Monopoly for example.
 
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Bård Holst
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GrimThunderbrew wrote:

next time we are going to try:
No tactics cards
Gain re-rolls equal to your leaders combat value minus opponents leader value(for entire combat not each round).

Skill icon (lightsabers)do nothing in combat


What do you do with the rebel shield generator which gives one tactics card at the beginning of every ground battle?
 
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Nusferatu wrote:
GrimThunderbrew wrote:

next time we are going to try:
No tactics cards
Gain re-rolls equal to your leaders combat value minus opponents leader value(for entire combat not each round).

Skill icon (lightsabers)do nothing in combat


What do you do with the rebel shield generator which gives one tactics card at the beginning of every ground battle?

1 reroll every round
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I tend to like cards as some have said they add tactical surpises (that's a polite way of saying more randomness XD)

Anyway... I am going to go for a stretch here... what if... WHAT IF...

A combat system I always liked and haven't seen employed very much again is the Dune combat system. Where it's actually a bet between attacker and defender. You bet how much you are willing to lose, and the one that bets more wins the encounter/turn.

So... WHAT IF...

You could BET a number that's between 1 and the total amount of units (maybe not the number of units itself but the resistance number added up) and that total would then be added to the space/ground skill of the Leader.

That number though is the amount of units you are willing to lose. But if it's bigger than the opponent you win that round. For every round victory you could get a new card, increasing your chances for next turn.

For the bet players could either use a dial or IF we are smart enough we could make a way to repurpose dice so that each sign means a specific "amount" you are willing to bet/lose.

It's crazy... IT PROBABLY WOULD NOT WORK. But I bet (no pun intended) it would make the battles faster, less random and we would still use ALL the components of the game...

That's my 2 cents... CHEERS, I'm OUT!
 
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Rasdel wrote:
I tend to like cards as some have said they add tactical surpises (that's a polite way of saying more randomness XD)

Anyway... I am going to go for a stretch here... what if... WHAT IF...

I don't like randomness but I'll chime in and play game. I'll ask a few questions to understand the "what if".

Rasdel wrote:

A combat system I always liked and haven't seen employed very much again is the Dune combat system. Where it's actually a bet between attacker and defender. You bet how much you are willing to lose, and the one that bets more wins the encounter/turn.

Scythe & the upcoming Japanese-fantasy themed kickstarter strategy game with lots of minis that's upcoming... Forgot the name... do employ derived-but-similar systems. Don't they?

Rasdel wrote:

So... WHAT IF...

You could BET a number that's between 1 and the total amount of units (maybe not the number of units itself but the resistance number added up) and that total would then be added to the space/ground skill of the Leader.

That number though is the amount of units you are willing to lose. But if it's bigger than the opponent you win that round. For every round victory you could get a new card, increasing your chances for next turn.

The card being drawn sounds like a snowball effect to me. I bet we're talking about rounds of the same combat? Why would I not bet all units from the start? What's my interest in saving some for a bit later? (I haven't played Dune, unfortunately - if you know of an example, feel free to point me to it.)

Rasdel wrote:

For the bet players could either use a dial or IF we are smart enough we could make a way to repurpose dice so that each sign means a specific "amount" you are willing to bet/lose.

So when do you actually lose units? After each bet? Even if you win?
 
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Let's go one at a time shall we ^^

Quote:
Scythe & the upcoming Japanese-fantasy themed kickstarter strategy game with lots of minis that's upcoming... Forgot the name... do employ derived-but-similar systems. Don't they?


Never played Scythe so to be honest I wouldn't know. About the Japanesse one... are you talking about "Rising Sun"... in that case I remember I saw a video some time ago but I don't recall it being similar to Dune.

Quote:
The card being drawn sounds like a snowball effect to me. I bet we're talking about rounds of the same combat? Why would I not bet all units from the start? What's my interest in saving some for a bit later? (I haven't played Dune, unfortunately - if you know of an example, feel free to point me to it.)


I AM NOT SURE THIS WILL WORK... but i'll leave one of the best videos I found that will explain it 10 times better that I could ever do.

TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION: The combat "BET" is called a Battle Plan. And in DUNE you have to choose the amount of units, the leader and a couple of cards (don't mind this last ones, they are simply used to try and kill the oposing Leader and in doing so reducing the number bet by the opponent). At the same time on Dune at the beggining of the game players select a Traitor (don't mind that... when facing the Traitor it's an autowin, but that doesn't apply here).

CHECK 13:04 for a breaf explanation on COMBAT RULES



So if you bet all your units you will lose. You need to have units standing alive so that you can claim the rewards (in Dune it's spice, which works like currency, maybe in Rebellion it could be a Mission card, who knows).

The player with most units will have an advantage but with the right tactical cards and the right leader the defending player could make enough damage to weaken the opponent.

At the same time, if the player with less troops manages to bet just enough as to loose less units than the opponent... the battle can turn drastically... add tactical cards to that and it could be pretty interesting.

Cards could be used as part of the bet itself. Only using one per "Battle plan" maybe. The player with the Leader with more skill will simply have more options.

But he who wins the round would also be able to get one more card to increase it's options. Maybe it IS a little TOO snowbally... maybe it should be the loser that get to take a new tactic card as compensation...

I haven't thought about it that well... But I think that maybe with a little thought this Variant COULD work.

Cheers






 
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Yan Bertrand
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OK, I have understood it.
And yes, Rising sun it was - thank you.

Scythe has that element of betting some of your power in the battle, on a wheel, and spending it in the process. And there are cards that add to the value of your bet, too. The main differences lie in the fact that only the loser loses units (indeed somewhat snowbally) and the numberof units is only indrectly involved (allowing to play more cards).

As for rising sun, you place your bets on 4 categories, one of thembeing brute force to win, but one can be capturing family members in the mist of battle, one is getting poets to write about your deeds, and I don't remember the last one. It's pretty different (except for the fact you place a hidden bet).

I think gaining a mission card would be overpowered. If you're gaining the system's field, then that's already a reward.
 
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Rodrigo Santos
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Quote:
I think gaining a mission card would be overpowered. If you're gaining the system's field, then that's already a reward.


Actually, I think you are right. It does make sense that technically the reward is there for the winner.

Anyway, this is what I though COULD work... maybe looking more into it, there could be something that could use all components repurposing them to make a faster more exciting battle mechanic.


Cheers
 
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Update: I had a game with the revised combat rules discussed in the first post and it felt quite good. Battles resolved quicker and with less hassle (no cards!); they felt neither too short nor too long. A strategic element was provided by the double lightsabers working as blockers, enabling choices such as "will I save my fighter or try to reroll for that last point of damage I need to destroy that star destroyer" etc...
Just a single game so far, looking forward to play this variant again.
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Played any more games? I've just bought this after demoing it at UKGE, loved it.

Though I could see the complaints were fair. I'd like to see how you are getting on with this. I heard the expansion fixed things like combat, but then added unnecessary extra stuff. Is there a way of just implimenting the good new rules per say? Or is your suggested "ignore the cards" the best way out?

Thanks.
 
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photoben wrote:
Played any more games? I've just bought this after demoing it at UKGE, loved it.

Though I could see the complaints were fair. I'd like to see how you are getting on with this. I heard the expansion fixed things like combat, but then added unnecessary extra stuff. Is there a way of just implimenting the good new rules per say? Or is your suggested "ignore the cards" the best way out?


Sorry for the late reply. We had another game today with the revised combat rules proposed in OP. The combat really felt much more streamlined and it flew more naturally.
There were a few large space combats, involving multiple Star Destroyer etc., where I found myself thinking "if we were using the tactics cards now it would be a terrible mess".
Using the double lightsabers as blockers provides for some tactical choices too, e.g. "will I let my X-Wing or Y-Wing die this round...".

I am happy so far, going to use the revised rules on our next game.
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I like the variant w/o cards very much. Will try it at some point.
 
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Playing with my son - we use only dice, it works superb.
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Mike Lee
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This is how we've been playing.

Remove all tactics cards from the game

Lightsaber symbols now represents a shield.

The person who rolled the dice gets to decide how damage is allocated (after shields block a hit)

Character numbers give you that number of rerolls
 
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Thanks for the thread. Like a lot of folks, I'm looking for a way to streamline the combat while retaining some semblance of balance.

This variant sounds promising but I'm struggling to understand precise mechanics of blocking. Specifically:


- Can you only block damage dealt in the current round, or is more like a 'heal' that works on any damage. The latter seems more streamlined, and I gather thats's what the expansion does.

- When the attacking player rolls, he doesn't yet have any damage assigned to his ships. Say he rolls a block. Can he apply it to damage that the defender assigns after he hands the dice over?

- But what if they need all 10 dice? How do you 'remember' that you had a block? Special tokens?

- If you do get block tokens, can you accumulate them across rounds?

- Can block dice only be used on the corresponding ship color? (Again, like the expansion, I gather). So then you would need two different token types?


I feel like the simplest thing is to just have the 'X' rolls grant a healing token that can be used whenever the player wants. But I'm curious to understand exactly how folks are doing it.

Thanks!
 
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