Raven Morpheus
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Hey all

I'm considering getting in on the ground floor of this new Warhammer Quest version whilst it's still readily available at reasonable prices...

I have the old 1995 version, well rules and stuff, I am lacking a few monster models and don't have any of the expansions, just the base box set, however upon playing with my gaming buddy we found the rules to be rather, er, broken...

Anyhow I'm wondering a few things before I buy into this new version -

I'm a little confused between the two versions - Are Silver Tower and Shadows over Hammerhal two stand alone games and don't contain rules for random dungeons or stuff outside of the box's setting?

The above leads me to my next two queries -

Can I use any of the old stuff with this new version?

Is there any roleplay type of rules for between dungeons?

Basically how, if at all, compatible with the old version are either of the two new boxed sets, and how much like the old version are they?


Thanks in advance.
 
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Raven Morpheus wrote:
Hey all

I'm considering getting in on the ground floor of this new Warhammer Quest version whilst it's still readily available at reasonable prices...

I have the old 1995 version, well rules and stuff, I am lacking a few monster models and don't have any of the expansions, just the base box set, however upon playing with my gaming buddy we found the rules to be rather, er, broken...

Anyhow I'm wondering a few things before I buy into this new version -

I'm a little confused between the two versions - Are Silver Tower and Shadows over Hammerhal two stand alone games and don't contain rules for random dungeons or stuff outside of the box's setting?

The above leads me to my next two queries -

Can I use any of the old stuff with this new version?

Is there any roleplay type of rules for between dungeons?

Basically how, if at all, compatible with the old version are either of the two new boxed sets, and how much like the old version are they?


Thanks in advance.


They are different from the original game. The very basic skeleton of that old game is in there, but it's a complete evolution of the design.

A major difference is how heroes operate, as they have a dice pool that represents their health and also which actions they can take within a round. As they level up, they gain additional skills that grant them more types of actions.

Silver Tower and Shadows Over Hammerhal are standalone games that you can combine in several ways (the heroes and monsters are cross-compatible, and you can use some of the Hammerhal rules in Silver Tower).

They are technically two halves of the same game, because Silver Tower is full co-op, while Hammerhal is one-vs-many with one player as the GM.

Silver Tower has you creating a dungeon deck based on the mission you're playing, and as you draw cards it directs you to certain passages in a story book that advances the plot. Monsters are controlled by AI that is much more sophisticated than the original game.

Hammerhal is much more like Advanced HeroQuest. The GM has a dungeon map that he reveals as the players explore. Between missions the players can visit a town to buy supplies and gain skills. While the GM controls the monsters, they are compatible with the AI system in Silver Tower.

Neither version has rules for making random dungeons, but making dungeons for Hammerhal is very easy for a GM with a bit of imagination.

I've done exhaustive reviews of both games that you might be interested in reading:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1611379/ch-ch-ch-ch-cha...
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1746747/home-where-hear...
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Raven Morpheus
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Thanks.

Sounds like Silver Tower is the most like the original core boxed game, but from reading your review there doesn't seem to be any sort of narrative for each dungeon you play, it's "just another dungeon" within the Silver Tower setting and once you're done with the Silver Tower "campaign" that's it, finito, start again. A bit like Space Hulk in that respect, but at least with Space Hulk you have access to a myriad of fan created and GW created additional campaigns, even if some do require you to have a 2nd or even 3rd set of the board tiles/doors.

It also sounds like I might as well chuck everything I have if I buy the new boxed game (unless I wish to play the old version at any point), I was at least hoping to use the old models.

A shame because despite the brokenness of the original I quite like it and was hoping one or the other of the new versions is an updated version of the original, keeping everything from the original but fixing the broken bits.

Ah well. C'est la vie.
 
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Raven Morpheus wrote:
Thanks.

Sounds like Silver Tower is the most like the original core boxed game, but from reading your review you don't have any sort of narrative for each dungeon you play, it's "just another dungeon" within the Silver Tower.

It also sounds like I might as well chuck everything I have if I buy the new boxed game (unless I wish to play the old version at any point), I was at least hoping to use the old models.

A shame because despite the brokenness of the original I quite like it and was hoping one or the other of the new versions is an updated version of the original, keeping everything from the original but fixing the broken bits.

Ah well. C'est la vie.


Hammerhal is more like the roleplaying book that came in the original game, as you have pre-planned dungeons with a GM and you can go to town between quests, although it really does feel (to me, at least) more like Advanced HeroQuest, which laid those foundations for the original WHQ. That's mainly because in Hammerhal you just have one massive, multi-level dungeon that you leave when you want to, and you need to draw a map as you explore.

Silver Tower is more like the random dungeon generator bit from original WHQ... although in Silver Tower the randomness is confined to the order of the rooms, not which rooms you will find.

Silver Tower does have a good overarching storyline - it's an interesting premise in which a bunch of characters are all in the Tower for their own reasons, facing a series of trials.

GW has just released a pack of adversary cards that allow you to add more types of monsters (including skaven). I expect them to add greenskins in the future, so you might want to hold on to your old models - although, be aware that they will be slightly smaller than GW's newer models.

Your old hero characters will come in handy if you decide to pick up the Hero card pack, which includes loads of character cards for heroes that you can then use with official GW miniatures or whatever proxies you have to hand.

Your old WHQ tiles could also be useful for making your own missions. And you could probably even port across the new heroes, rules and adversaries and use them with the random dungeon generation system from old Quest.

Also be aware that GW is currently releasing new Hammerhal adventures in White Dwarf. One in December, January and February. Those missions aren't compatible with Silver Tower.

I wouldn't throw anything away just yet.
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I have Silver Tower but not Hammerhal. However, I have watched a few gameplay and reviews for Hammerhal. From what I have gathered, the major difference between ST and SoH are:

1) Silver Tower is full co-op; where Hammerhal requires a game master

2) Silver Tower is very random. In ST, the scenario instructs you to pick certain exploration cards and shuffle them together, this creates the dungeon layout. This means, every time you play a scenario in ST the map layout will most likely be different from the previous time. Also, the encounters, unexpected events, and enemy behaviors, are generated by dice rolls to simulate the "AI".

WHere in Hammerhal, the scenarios are pre-generated and the game is "conducted" by a game master (who reads and do things from a GM's book)

IN short, ST is more random. But Hammerhal's campaign may feel more scripted. Randomness can be a double edged sword. Some reviewers are saying ST has higher replayability than SoH because of the randomness. Personally, I haven't played Hammerhal so I don't know about its replayability. But I have played through ST's campaign, and my second play through was very different to the first one (because of the randomness). In fact, during my first ST campaign, I accidentally replayed one scenario I already beaten, but I didn't realise it until the very end of that scenario. Why? Because even though I was playing the same scenario, but ST's randomness made the scenario unrecognisable to me.

3) ST (the base set) has 6 heroes. SoH has 4 heroes.

4) Hammerhal has town visits. ST does not have town visits.

5) Both games have an over arching story.

6) THe campaign in both games consist of 8 scenarios.

To me, my feeling is that the campaign in Hammerhal may feel more rich in storytelling because it is heavily scripted. But this could also mean you play through Hammerhal's campaign once or twice then you may not want to replay it anymore. Where Silver Tower, due to its randomness, you might have a very easy game or a very difficult game depending on the luck, but you can replay the campaign dozens of times, with different heroes etc..

Personally, I prefer full co-op games with high replayability. This is why I bought Silver Tower and not Hammerhal (but it is difficult to resisting buying Hammerhal). I do wish ST has town visits though. I am hoping they will release a 3rd WQ box, full co-op, and combing the randomness of ST and the town visits in Hammerhal. Now, that would be the perfect WQ game.

I hope that helps.



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That's pretty much on the money, Daniel. A few extra points:

Hammerhal doesn't have multiple scenarios. It has a single, multi-level dungeon, with stairwells going between levels and back to the surface. If you find a stairwell, you can leave whenever you want - you don't play to complete the level you're on. Furthermore, it's possible to complete the campaign without exploring the whole dungeon. You may miss some levels completely.

Certain rooms within the dungeon have scripted enemies and traps, but you also get unexpected events, where you roll on a chart to get an event or an ambush. Incorporating Silver Tower enemies, or any enemies from the adversary card pack, increases the range of possible enemies you may face. So, while you may know some traps and enemies that are on the way, taking a different route through the dungeon, or adding new monsters, can change things up.

The monsters in Hammerhal function in exactly the same way as in Silver Tower. The only major difference is that, after rolling on the behaviour table, the GM can decide to ignore the result and do a basic "move and attack" action instead, and sometimes the GM gets to call for reinforcements.

Combining those facts, with the potential to play with other heroes (if you have access to them) means the game is a bit more replayable than it may at first seem, although definitely not to the same degree as Silver Tower.

Of course, it's much easier to create new dungeons for Hammerhal than it is for Silver Tower. So, if you have a GM who likes that sort of thing, Hammerhal becomes a sandbox.

Hammerhal also adds a few new rules that are worth knowing about. Grievous wounds give you a permanent injury that lasts until you return to town (reducing your dice pool each turn), there's a cap on how many skills you can have at any one time, and now you can search, which opens up the option to discover secret doors, traps, and treasure. So, it's a bit of an evolution over the Silver Tower rules set, and some of the rules are worth porting backwards to Silver Tower.
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Thanks Kevin.

I have been considering to get Hammerhal and then use the home brew rules to convert it to full co-op (I believe someone has made the rules to turn SoH into full co-op). So if it has more replayability than it first seems then I might try it out. A question, is it possible to use the heroes from ST in Hammerhal?
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Daniel Lin wrote:
Thanks Kevin.

I have been considering to get Hammerhal and then use the home brew rules to convert it to full co-op (I believe someone has made the rules to turn SoH into full co-op). So if it has more replayability than it first seems then I might try it out. A question, is it possible to use the heroes from ST in Hammerhal?


Unless you are very thorough the first time through, I think you could play Hammerhal twice before seeing everything. Then it depends on whether you want to run the dungeon again with different heroes or whatever. (That assumes you always play with the same group - if you GM for several groups you're going to get much more mileage out of it.)

Every hero and monster from Silver Tower is compatible with Hammerhal (and vice versa). That goes for all the heroes in the Silver Tower hero card pack and every adversary in the Warhammer Quest adversary card pack.

When you play the core Hammerhal campaign, you occasionally get to introduce "exotic adversaries" and that's when you get to pick from the Silver Tower lot. It doesn't happen that often, but it's there in that core campaign. Your Kairic Acolytes get more use as they are a standard adversary, so you can mix them straight into the Hammerhal lot.

You can also use any Hammerhal enemies as exotic adversaries in Silver Tower, and the "big bad" in Hammerhal is a sorcerer that has a hero card in the Silver Tower hero card pack. (Phew!)

You can also mix together the skill cards and item cards, but be aware the card backs are different. That didn't bother me that much, but it's the kind of thing that will make some players go nuts.

The three new missions in White Dwarf are introducing new adversaries from the adversary card pack, but they also have alternatives from the Hammerhal core set for those people who don't have all the options available.

I don't believe anyone has done a "full" conversion of Hammerhal to co-op. I know some people were converting at least some of the levels, but I don't recall seeing someone convert the whole thing (including the town section). I may be wrong on that. Either way, I don't think the core Hammerhal campaign lends itself well to co-op, and I wouldn't want to play the campaign that way. There are too many secrets for the GM to know, such as the position of traps in rooms. However, I think it would be pretty easy to make a random dungeon generator that allows your heroes to go dungeon-plunging for loot. Lifting those core elements from the original WHQ, and creating a few map generating charts shouldn't be that difficult. It's something I've been thinking about.
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Hi Kevin,

I have a question for you.

I found a rule book that claimed to have converted Hammerhal to full co-op. Just wondering if this is enough to play the game full co-op, including the town section?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tz6xznca3ygk0i3/Hammerhall%20Co-op...

Thanks

 
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Daniel Lin wrote:
Hi Kevin,

I have a question for you.

I found a rule book that claimed to have converted Hammerhal to full co-op. Just wondering if this is enough to play the game full co-op, including the town section?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tz6xznca3ygk0i3/Hammerhall%20Co-op...

Thanks



This is the one I had seen before. I think I saw it when the creator had only done the first mission, so I wasn't aware the whole campaign was done.

This is a good effort (possibly as good as it gets), but for me it just doesn't work.

First of all, it's a lot of effort for not a lot of gain. Just look at how many cards you have to print off and make in order to keep the dungeon creation "secret."

Even then, the descriptions of the rooms in the text give away secrets. I won't point to anything in particular because of spoilers, but when the room description says "if someone stands on this space, read out secret 4" you're certainly losing some of the mystery that comes from having a GM with all the secrets. Also, one of the cards (I won't tell you which one) has the solution to a puzzle written right on it.

So, even after printing out all the cards, you still aren't obscuring all of the secrets the dungeon holds.

Finally, it looks like the creator of the document has had to introduce sections where a player isn't allowed to tell other players what's going on, in an attempt to preserve a secret.

This document doesn't include the town section. Most of the town stuff is easy enough to change to co-op mode. There are a few times when a GM would make a decision, but you can probably randomly generate that decision with some dice rolling.

This document also doesn't contain the new quests appearing in White Dwarf magazine. And again - I don't fancy having to print out cards each time a new mission turns up.

For me, personally, (and this isn't to knock the efforts of the creator) the best thing to do for making Hammerhal co-op is creating a deck of exploration cards like the ones from the original Quest, and just going on random dungeon plunges, rather than trying to squeeze a square peg in a round hole.


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Thanks Kevin for shedding the light into my question

I will probably hold off from buying Hammerhal, because co-op is our thing. Hopefully the next Warhammer Quest box will be co-op. Meanwhile, I will just play Silver Tower and I just acquired the MIghty Hero expansion, once I finish painting the 4 new heroes I can add them to ST too, so lots of fun ahead.
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Daniel Lin wrote:
Thanks Kevin for shedding the light into my question

I will probably hold off from buying Hammerhal, because co-op is our thing. Hopefully the next Warhammer Quest box will be co-op. Meanwhile, I will just play Silver Tower and I just acquired the MIghty Hero expansion, once I finish painting the 4 new heroes I can add them to ST too, so lots of fun ahead.


You're welcome. Silver tower has plenty of replayability.

If you have any more questions feel free to contact me.
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