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Subject: Pupil's Kata Bonus rss

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Cody Heim
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I'm reading the hero sheet for the Pupil and going through the cards. I'm confused on how the Kata bonus works, due to Example 2 on the hero sheet. It goes:

Start Vertical (No Bonus) + Diagonal Slash (+1 d10) + Horizontal Slice (+2 d10) + Diagonal Slash (+1 d10)

"Each attack that uses an adjacent attack plane as the previous attack, receives a Kata bonus. The Kata bonus is an additional 1 d10 to Attacks and it stacks. The Kata bonus continues to stack making each attack that flows from the Kata more and more powerful."

The wording makes it seem like the only requirement to keep stacking d10's is that the previous attack used an adjacent attack plane. Is there more to this requirement that I'm missing? From my current understanding, the Example 2 should have the last Diagonal Slash at a +3 d10 since the previous Horizontal Slice is adjacent.
 
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Endevor Rovedne
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This example is wrong
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Michael Callahan
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I think we need to work up a full "how-to" on this hero. The one sheet guide is so confusing and seems to contradict the guide card in the terminology.

I think that "opposite direction" on the guide card is the equivalent of the "same direction" on the one page sheet.

I believe that you can play an attack card only IF:

1) you are starting from a sheathed state, or
2) The card indicates that it starts a Kata, or
3) the Kata symbol matches the last attack card played (no bonus), or
4) the Kata symbol is "adjacent" to a symbol of the last attack card played.

Basically you can swing your sword back and forth along the same plane with no bonuses, or you can move to to an adjacent for a bonus,.... the only thing you can't do is go from horizontal to vertical or vice versa.
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Endevor Rovedne
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I made a lot of changes in the explanation of this on the french version i have to look at it (i did it maybe 5 or 6 months ago) to make a post.
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Cody Heim
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Awesome, thanks you two for the help!
 
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Sebastian
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i have the same Problems

example 2 should have 3 dice in the end.

also, on the pupil hero Card it says:

"the kata Bonus stacks until the sword is sheathed (ok i got that) OR broken by an attack in the opposite direction"

in the large rules sheet, it is more written in the way that you can only Play an attack Card if it is the same direction you played before, or it is adjecent, or you start fresh after sheath.

if you can just Play an attack in the opposite direction, all the sheath Cards wouldn´t make any sense. so i guess the pupil Card is worded wrong.



another question:

it is written that the Bonus stays from cycle to cycle.

1. how do i Keep track in which state the kata is ? the attack Cards are discarded.

2. does that mean when i end my cycle with a horizontal slash, i can start my new cycle with a diagonal slash and get immediatly +1d10?


@endeavor:would be nice to hear your changes! did you discuss them with MCG?
 
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Michael Callahan
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the "opposite" direction was a really poor choice,..... because what they mean is: playing an Attack card with the same symbol,... say vertical,... as the previous Attack card played.

they are talking in real world terms instead of game rule terms. If you swing your sword downward on a vertical plane,... you can then swing your sword upwards on a vertical plane thereafter.

If you boil it down; it's what I stated above:

you can play an Attack or Counterattack card only IF:

1) you are starting from a sheathed state, or
2) The card indicates that it starts a Kata, or
3) the Kata symbol matches the last Attack/Counterattack card played (no bonus) SAME=OPPOSITE , or
4) the Kata symbol is "adjacent" to a symbol of the last attack card played (gains +1D10 bonus). e.g. Horizontal to Diagonal

I believe that we need a Kata state tracking card with a token. (It should have one spot for "Sheathed, and one for each of the Kata diagrams,.... then it might be good to also have a , +1D10, +2D10, +3D10, +4D10, etc. on there as well.

Any one with the graphics skills up to the task? I liked the movement state card,... it could be simple like that.
 
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Michael Callahan
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cador2 wrote:


2. does that mean when i end my cycle with a horizontal slash, i can start my new cycle with a diagonal slash and get immediatly +1d10?


Once you SHEATH your sword or RESET a Kata; your D10 bonus is entirely removed,.... you mast start a new Kata, and on your second attack you can then earn a +1D10 bonus if you follow with an adjacent Kata diagram.
 
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Grim Reaper
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yamato2 wrote:

I believe that we need a Kata state tracking card with a token. (It should have one spot for "Sheathed, and one for each of the Katas,.... then it might be good to also have a , +1D10, +2D10, +3D10, +4D10, etc. on there as well.

Any one with the graphics skills up to the task? I liked the movement state card,... it could be simple like that.


Something like this? There's room for some text there too...

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Paul Kelly
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Grim Reaper's card is awesome, quick work that and beautifully done.

Quote:
1. how do i Keep track in which state the kata is ? the attack Cards are discarded.

2. does that mean when i end my cycle with a horizontal slash, i can start my new cycle with a diagonal slash and get immediatly +1d10?


1. However, with out that extra card, I figured the last card you played you could just make sure was the top card of your discard pile as this is usually face up anyway. Keeping track of the dice was little trickier but there are plenty of tokens/counters/coins in most gamers collections to figure something out. Alternatively, put a wound token on the threat track to note the extra dice.

2. Yes, adding it to whatever bonus dice you already had.

This looks like a monster of a hero and a lot of fun to play once you get to grips with the movement and kata rules.
 
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Paul Kelly
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I am wondering if maybe the basic 'Attack' card breaks a kata as it has no plane of attack, as such it does not seem to be excluded from being played in a kata sequence but neither does it seem to fit the criteria to keep the bonus as if you just played a card in the same plane of attack.

I agree that is seems to be that a vertical attack cannot be followed by a horizontal attack (or vice versa) rather than being a valid action but one which breaks the kata.
 
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Michael Callahan
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Khali wrote:
I am wondering if maybe the basic 'Attack' card breaks a kata as it has no plane of attack, as such it does not seem to be excluded from being played in a kata sequence but neither does it seem to fit the criteria to keep the bonus as if you just played a card in the same plane of attack.


this is the dilemma which I hope to resolve:

As written; the standard "ATTACK" card is the hardest to define.

My guess is that it must still abide by the written rules as I understand them. You MUST have the sword sheathed (i.e. the Kata must have been reset) by playing some card that does this (Sheath Sword or Clean Blade) or by clearing a tile. There is no other scenario within the rules that would allow for these cards to be played. So in my mind, they are the first to be replaced by Novice upgrade cards which have directional attacks.

So if you are "sheathed" a.k.a "Kata reset", you MAY play any card with the "Attack" keyword,... If you choose to play the ATTACK card,... then you no longer satisfy the conditions to play any other card with the "Attack" keyword thereafter. You'd be forced to play one of the reset cards mentioned above before you could attack again.

Now; this my not be the rules as intended,.... but they sure seem to be the rules as written. Should the rule sheet only be calling out "directional attacks"??? that term is utilized in a couple of areas,... but it is not defined as such on the rule card or the rule sheet.

This leads us to one other oddity: is a "Counterattack" an "Attack"? The RAW gods would say no,.... and thereby; you could play a "counterattack" when applicable and not interrupt the Kata or be subject to the rules of the Kata bonus,........ this would appear to make sense,... but then there is a JM level upgrade card that has a "counterattack" with a directional Kata diagram on it! does this limit when it can be played? or perhaps only provide the Kata bonus when utilized at the right time? will it interrupt a Kata if it is in the same plane as the previous "Attack" that you played?

It's all sloppy and inconsistent wording in my book. What do you all think? what was the intention? should basic "ATTACK" cards be allowed at any time? only while sheathed? should they interrupt a Kata? Should you have no other choice bu to play one of the reset cards after playing a basic "ATTACK"


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Paul Kelly
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@Michael Callahan

Thank you, that's almost exactly the questions running through my mind that I could not get clear enough to write out as you have.

I am going to sleep on it and re-read the rule sheet and hero card tomorrow to try and make some further sense of it all.
 
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Michael Callahan
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I've managed to verify that indeed:

1) Non-directional Attacks (and Counterattacks) can only be played from a sheathed state AND they also leave you in a position that you have to resheath before you can play any other Attack/Counterattack cards.

2) Counterattacks are Attacks and are also governed by the Kata limitations and bonuses


A couple of thoughts,.... looking at the Pupil; he seems like a total beast. I believe that this is a simple way to tone him down early on,... You have two "Attack" cards and one "Skewer" card that are not very useful unless you also have one of your two reset cards ready,..... playing one of those cards without a "Sheath Sword" or "Clean Blade" at the ready could leave you locked out of attacking for a hero cycle or two shake. This is also easily remedied by your first few card swaps which can be used to add new directional Attack cards to your deck.

I looked at a few of the JM level cards,.... and wow,.... there are some great ones there,.... I'm already imagining some epic hack-n-slash!
 
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Michael Callahan
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grimzim wrote:




I love the card! mad skills.

two thoughts:

1) I think it'd be most useful if the D10 bonuses were just bigger and spaced out to fill the space on the card. It would make it much easier to fit a token or glass bead on there.

2) while beautiful; I think not having it look like a hero card would be better. Down the road, if my son went to play,.... could he mistake this for a hero card and initially shuffle it in with the rest? I know I'd never make that mistake,.... but just thinking ahead.

 
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Grim Reaper
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yamato2 wrote:

1) I think it'd be most useful if the D10 bonuses were just bigger and spaced out to fill the space on the card. It would make it much easier to fit a token or glass bead on there.

2) while beautiful; I think not having it look like a hero card would be better. Down the road, if my son went to play,.... could he mistake this for a hero card and initially shuffle it in with the rest? I know I'd never make that mistake,.... but just thinking ahead.



I wanted to retain the look of the hero cards so that's immediately clear that it belongs to the Pupil. However, I've adapted it slightly by removing the flame icon as well as the background on the left. What do you think of that version?

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Stevie P
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The left background is needed. It’s too hard to see on the lighter background. The rest is great
 
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Michael Callahan
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I think it works fine,.... I guess you could try dark text and darkening the grey arrows a bit,... I just think having that left hand bar really makes it look too similar to the other cards,....

maybe making the whole thing grey is an option?
 
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Reddish22
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yamato2 wrote:
I've managed to verify that indeed:

1) Non-directional attacks (and counterattacks) can only be played from a sheathed state AND they also leave you in a position that you have to resheath before you can play any other attack cards.

2) Counterattacks are attacks and are also governed by the Kata limitations and bonuses


A couple of thoughts,.... looking at the Pupil; he seems like a total beast. I believe that this is a simple way to tone him down early on,... You have two "Attack" cards and one "Skewer" card that are not very useful unless you also have one of your two reset cards ready,..... playing one of those cards without a "Sheath Sword" or "Clean Blade" at the ready could leave you locked out of attacking for a hero cycle or two :shake:. This is also easily remedied by your first few card swaps which can be used to add new directional attacks to your deck.

I looked at a few of the JM level cards,.... and wow,.... there are some great ones there,.... I'm already imagining some epic hack-n-slash!


Thanks for getting clarification on these, Michael. Unfortunately I played the answer to the first question incorrectly last night during my first game (though I think I only used a single regular Attack). The answer to that question does kind of make me scratch my head a little though, because those attacks are not only basically worthless, they actually hurt you to play (since the reset the Kata cards are fairly rare).

I thought he was a very awesome character to play!
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Grim Reaper
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Michael Callahan
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I think I like the top one the best!
 
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Paul Kelly
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Quote:
I've managed to verify that indeed:

1) Non-directional attacks (and counterattacks) can only be played from a sheathed state AND they also leave you in a position that you have to resheath before you can play any other attack cards.

2) Counterattacks are attacks and are also governed by the Kata limitations and bonuses


A couple of thoughts,.... looking at the Pupil; he seems like a total beast. I believe that this is a simple way to tone him down early on,... You have two "Attack" cards and one "Skewer" card that are not very useful unless you also have one of your two reset cards ready,..... playing one of those cards without a "Sheath Sword" or "Clean Blade" at the ready could leave you locked out of attacking for a hero cycle or two shake. This is also easily remedied by your first few card swaps which can be used to add new directional attacks to your deck.


First off, having re-read it and thought about it more, I agree with you although I could agrue differently and potentially be swayed to another point of veiw.
So, just for the avoidance of giving argument room to players who argue a point of veiw when the situation fits, where did you manage to verify that this is the correct interpretation?

From my point of veiw I give more credence to the rule sheet rather than the small summary card, especially as the summary card is written with such confusing and conflicting language, I mean, having already stated that cuts, slashes and slices relate to particular directions why not use a collective form of those to word the card instead of throwing 'opposite' into the mix
 
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Michael Callahan
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Let's just say I have zero doubt about this.

I tend to agree that the sheet is a bit closer to the intended way, but still as you say,... conflicts with the card.

"back along the same plane" = "in the opposite direction"

it's totally counter-intuitive,.... but that is the answer.



I like the helper card a lot,.... the other way to do it would be with a blow up of the windrose; with a token or glass bead at the point of the direction that you used,..... you can visualize the token moving across the attack plane,....say, from top to bottom,.....then if you played another "vertical card" you'd move the toke from bottom to top,..... and kill your kata bonus.

the card above also works fin for "adjusting you kata up or down by one degree"

again; not the best way to word it,.... but the three Kata symbols on the card are arranged so that they are the same as if you were moving around the perimeter of the Kata windrose,.... you can never move get from vertical to horizontal in one step.
 
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Stevie P
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yamato2 wrote:
I think I like the top one the best!


He just posted them all. Print the one you like best!

Thanks Grim!
 
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Grim Reaper
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yamato2 wrote:
Let's just say I have zero doubt about this.

I tend to agree that the sheet is a bit closer to the intended way, but still as you say,... conflicts with the card.

"back along the same plane" = "in the opposite direction"

it's totally counter-intuitive,.... but that is the answer.



I like the helper card a lot,.... the other way to do it would be with a blow up of the windrose; with a token or glass bead at the point of the direction that you used,..... you can visualize the token moving across the attack plane,....say, from top to bottom,.....then if you played another "vertical card" you'd move the toke from bottom to top,..... and kill your kata bonus.

the card above also works fin for "adjusting you kata up or down by one degree"

again; not the best way to word it,.... but the three Kata symbols on the card are arranged so that they are the same as if you were moving around the perimeter of the Kata windrose,.... you can never move get from vertical to horizontal in one step.


If someone re-writes the text I can quickly do a new character card for the pupil.

As regarding the cards themselves: regardless if interpreted like you said or not the basic Attack cards are bad. On the one hand side I don't like the artwork (you know, the Pupil can only use swords) but more importantly the cards should have either a Kata symbol OR state how they can be played. I think I will therefore do a new version of the basic attack cards and the Counterattack card. I will include a Kata symbol on these cards. While this will make the cards better it is way more consistent to understand and play and the basic Attack cards will still be replaced by Novice cards quickly - thus the Pupil will only be slightly "stronger" at the beginning.
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