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Subject: Lava - which rule do you use? rss

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Dave Smith
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The rulebook says that you can't end an activation in a lava area and you opponont moves your model out of it. But ib the latest playthroughs on BoW, Leo says the opposite where you can move into it and you move your model out.
So which is correct, and what rule do you use, I'm playing by Leo's ruling as I feel that the owning player should have the option where his model ends up.
 
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Max Maloney
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I would use the rulebook. It seems obvious it’s meant to be a penalty to step in lava, not a free move to exploit.
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Max Jansson
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The BoW playthrough is old, with old rules. Deciding where your unit goes after it's lava dip is very powerful, that is probably the reason it was scrapped.
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D Conklin
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Evil_X wrote:
The BoW playthrough is old, with old rules. Deciding where your unit goes after it's lava dip is very powerful, that is probably the reason it was scrapped.


Agree.

Who moves a unit out of Lava?
BoW video shows unit's owning player moving the unit out of lava but rules say "opposing player" moves the unit out. The rule changed and the rulebook is correct. Final confirmation and explanation would be nice.

The bigger question is:

Is there a missing rule for Lava?
BoW video shows units "jumping" over the Lava, but rules don't mention that and just say "if a unit enters an area of dormant lava, they become the target of a 5 dice attack". Has the rule changed and this omission was done on purpose?

It definitely adds a level of difficulty if this rule has in fact changed on purpose.
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Dave Smith
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Evil_X wrote:
The BoW playthrough is old, with old rules. Deciding where your unit goes after it's lava dip is very powerful, that is probably the reason it was scrapped.

Agreed, it does damage the character though, but it seems overkill in being thrown into lava and then your opponent places your model back in the same area he came from or other danger.

Think the best rule would be that your non-fireproof model can't end an activation in Lava but the owning model gets to place him as he gets out.
 
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Dave Smith
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dc0nklin wrote:
Evil_X wrote:
The BoW playthrough is old, with old rules. Deciding where your unit goes after it's lava dip is very powerful, that is probably the reason it was scrapped.


Agree.



The bigger question is:

Is there a missing rule for Lava?
BoW video shows units "jumping" over the Lava, but rules don't mention that and just say "if a unit enters an area of dormant lava, they become the target of a 5 dice attack". Has the rule changed and this omission was done on purpose?

It definitely adds a level of difficulty if this rule has in fact changed on purpose.


Rules actually say that models can't end their move in lava, so they can cross as normal using 2 move points to get across, just like any other movement.
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John Aronis
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The rule I use for lava is the the one in the rulebook.

Don’t understand why you would argue an older playthrough is more up to date outside of trying a WAAC move.
 
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Max Jansson
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Major Mishap wrote:
dc0nklin wrote:
Evil_X wrote:
The BoW playthrough is old, with old rules. Deciding where your unit goes after it's lava dip is very powerful, that is probably the reason it was scrapped.


Agree.



The bigger question is:

Is there a missing rule for Lava?
BoW video shows units "jumping" over the Lava, but rules don't mention that and just say "if a unit enters an area of dormant lava, they become the target of a 5 dice attack". Has the rule changed and this omission was done on purpose?

It definitely adds a level of difficulty if this rule has in fact changed on purpose.


Rules actually say that models can't end their move in lava, so they can cross as normal using 2 move points to get across, just like any other movement.


Yes a model cannot end its movement in lava, but more importantly it says that when a unit enters lava it suffers a 5 dice attack and must move to an adjacent non lava area of it's opponents choice. So it never has a chance to take that second move before your opponent decides where it goes (which will probably not be where it was headed).
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John Strong
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Now can’t fireproof and flying units end their movement on a lava area?
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Dave Smith
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jakkaof86 wrote:
The rule I use for lava is the the one in the rulebook.

Don’t understand why you would argue an older playthrough is more up to date outside of trying a WAAC move.


I prefer the demo rules and think they are more balanced and fair to the thrown model.
 
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Max Jansson
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cruehitman wrote:
Now can’t fireproof and flying units end their movement on a lava area?


Correct, because these units specifically ignore lava terrain effects.
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Raph Moimoi
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English rules :
Lava - Dormant
3D elements: none.

Terrain effect: a unit cannot end a turn in this area. If
a unit enters an area of dormant lava, they become
the target of a 5 dice attack. The unit is then moved
1 area into any adjacent non-lava area chosen by the
opposing player.

Lava - Erupting
3D elements: none.

Terrain effect: a unit cannot walk, run or deploy into
erupting lava. If a unit enters an area of erupting
lava, they become the target of a 7 dice attack. The
unit is then moved 1 area into any adjacent non-lava
area chosen by the opposing player.


French rules :
Lave effusive
Éléments 3D : aucun.
Effet de terrain : les unités ne peuvent pas effectuer
de marche, de course, ou de déploiement dans
cette zone. Si une unité pénètre dans une zone de
lave effusive, elle devient la cible d’une attaque de
5 dés. L’unité est alors déplacée d’une zone par son
contrôleur vers n’importe quelle zone adjacente qui
ne soit pas une zone de lave.
Lave explosive
Éléments 3D : aucun.
Effet de terrain : les unités ne peuvent pas finir leur
tour dans cette zone. Si une unité pénètre dans une
zone de lave explosive, elle devient la cible d’une
attaque de 7 dés. L’unité est alors déplacée d’une
zone par son contrôleur vers n’importe quelle zone
adjacente qui ne soit pas une zone de lave.



Beware, there are mistakes in both french an english rules for lava.

First of all in french erupting lava and dormant lava rules are inverted...
Then, it says when an unit is thrown into lava, its controller decides in which zone the unit is moved to after it has been attacked by the lava.
In english it only says opposing player chooses where to move the unit.

When you move your unit through dormant lava, you must have sufficient move points to do so, you take damage and you choose where to move it. But when you are thrown into, your opponent chooses where to move the unit after the lava attack.
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Max Jansson
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Pikaraph wrote:
English rules :
Lava - Dormant
3D elements: none.

Terrain effect: a unit cannot end a turn in this area. If
a unit enters an area of dormant lava, they become
the target of a 5 dice attack. The unit is then moved
1 area into any adjacent non-lava area chosen by the
opposing player.

Lava - Erupting
3D elements: none.

Terrain effect: a unit cannot walk, run or deploy into
erupting lava. If a unit enters an area of erupting
lava, they become the target of a 7 dice attack. The
unit is then moved 1 area into any adjacent non-lava
area chosen by the opposing player.


French rules :
Lave effusive
Éléments 3D : aucun.
Effet de terrain : les unités ne peuvent pas effectuer
de marche, de course, ou de déploiement dans
cette zone. Si une unité pénètre dans une zone de
lave effusive, elle devient la cible d’une attaque de
5 dés. L’unité est alors déplacée d’une zone par son
contrôleur vers n’importe quelle zone adjacente qui
ne soit pas une zone de lave.
Lave explosive
Éléments 3D : aucun.
Effet de terrain : les unités ne peuvent pas finir leur
tour dans cette zone. Si une unité pénètre dans une
zone de lave explosive, elle devient la cible d’une
attaque de 7 dés. L’unité est alors déplacée d’une
zone par son contrôleur vers n’importe quelle zone
adjacente qui ne soit pas une zone de lave.



Beware, there are mistakes in both french an english rules for lava.

First of all in french erupting lava and dormant lava rules are inverted...
Then, it says when an unit is thrown into lava, its controller decides in which zone the unit is moved to after it has been attacked by the lava.
In english it only says opposing player chooses where to move the unit.

When you move your unit through dormant lava, you must have sufficient move points to do so, you take damage and you choose where to move it. But when you are thrown into, your opponent chooses where to move the unit after the lava attack.


oh dear, I smell a reprint coming up. Thanks for the translation.
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Kostas K.
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Pikaraph wrote:
Then, it says when an unit is thrown into lava, its controller decides in which zone the unit is moved to after it has been attacked by the lava.
In english it only says opposing player chooses where to move the unit.

When you move your unit through dormant lava, you must have sufficient move points to do so, you take damage and you choose where to move it. But when you are thrown into, your opponent chooses where to move the unit after the lava attack.


These statements contradict each other.

I guess what you meant, and the way it's written in french, is that when "you get thrown into", you decide, and when you "walk into" the opponent decides.
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Raph Moimoi
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kostool13 wrote:
Pikaraph wrote:
Then, it says when an unit is thrown into lava, its controller decides in which zone the unit is moved to after it has been attacked by the lava.
In english it only says opposing player chooses where to move the unit.

When you move your unit through dormant lava, you must have sufficient move points to do so, you take damage and you choose where to move it. But when you are thrown into, your opponent chooses where to move the unit after the lava attack.


These statements contradict each other.

I guess what you meant, and the way it's written in french, is that when "you get thrown into", you decide, and when you "walk into" the opponent decides.


What I meant is there are enough mistakes here and there not to follow what's written.
The most logical way is to decide when you move your unit and your opponent decide when he throws you whatever the lava type is.
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Anton Bedarev
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1. If you're going thru a lava zone by our own will, you can choose target zone for your trip
2. If you have been thrown by talent, an opposite players doing 5 dice roll and choosing a zone for you
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Max Jansson
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ademnon wrote:
1. If you're going thru a lava zone by our own will, you can choose target zone for your trip
2. If you have been thrown by talent, an opposite players doing 5 dice roll and choosing a zone for you


Do you base these assumptions on rules? Please show reference.


You always take damage whether moving into or being thrown into dormant lava.
English rules don't let you choose where you end up if you walk in to dormant lava, your opponent chooses for you (this is contradicted by the french rules).
Opponent chooses where you end up if your are thrown into the lava.
 
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Anton Bedarev
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If it's an opponent choice, with 4 ppl game, you'll never pass a lava zone without bridge.
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Raph Moimoi
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There's one thing I would ask about lava :
When you move into lava and you die there, where do you drop your Omphalos : in the lava ?
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Max Jansson
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Pikaraph wrote:
There's one thing I would ask about lava :
When you move into lava and you die there, where do you drop your Omphalos : in the lava ?


Yes, Omphalos can be dropped in lava.
 
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Jens Larsen
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Evil_X wrote:
ademnon wrote:
1. If you're going thru a lava zone by our own will, you can choose target zone for your trip
2. If you have been thrown by talent, an opposite players doing 5 dice roll and choosing a zone for you


Do you base these assumptions on rules? Please show reference.


You always take damage whether moving into or being thrown into dormant lava.
English rules don't let you choose where you end up if you walk in to dormant lava, your opponent chooses for you (this is contradicted by the french rules).
Opponent chooses where you end up if your are thrown into the lava.


I suspect (but may of course be wrong) that it is supposed to be possible to cross dormant lava without taking damage. The reason for my assumption is the volcano map itself. If it is a four-player skirmish, then two players' units have no way of getting non-fireproof units to the central areas without being the target of these 5-dice attacks (to say nothing of being thrown right back where they came from). And that does not seem balanced to me. So we are interpreting the dormant lava like this:

- A unit cannot DEPLOY into an area of dormant lava.
- A unit can WALK or RUN through an area with dormant lava, but it cannot enter an area with dormant lava if it no longer will have enough remaining speed to continue directly into an adjacent non-lava area. It costs the normal one point of speed to enter an area of dormant lava.
- If a unit ends up in an area of dormant lava (by being thrown or by some other effect) where they are not able to continue by themselves to an adjacent non-lava area, they become the target of a 5 dice ATTACK. The unit is then moved 1 area into any adjacent non-lava area chosen by the opposing player.
 
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Max Jansson
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Uthin wrote:
Evil_X wrote:
ademnon wrote:
1. If you're going thru a lava zone by our own will, you can choose target zone for your trip
2. If you have been thrown by talent, an opposite players doing 5 dice roll and choosing a zone for you


Do you base these assumptions on rules? Please show reference.


You always take damage whether moving into or being thrown into dormant lava.
English rules don't let you choose where you end up if you walk in to dormant lava, your opponent chooses for you (this is contradicted by the french rules).
Opponent chooses where you end up if your are thrown into the lava.


I suspect (but may of course be wrong) that it is supposed to be possible to cross dormant lava without taking damage. The reason for my assumption is the volcano map itself. If it is a four-player skirmish, then two players' units have no way of getting non-fireproof units to the central areas without being the target of these 5-dice attacks (to say nothing of being thrown right back where they came from). And that does not seem balanced to me. So we are interpreting the dormant lava like this:

- A unit cannot DEPLOY into an area of dormant lava.
- A unit can WALK or RUN through an area with dormant lava, but it cannot enter an area with dormant lava if it no longer will have enough remaining speed to continue directly into an adjacent non-lava area. It costs the normal one point of speed to enter an area of dormant lava.
- If a unit ends up in an area of dormant lava (by being thrown or by some other effect) where they are not able to continue by themselves to an adjacent non-lava area, they become the target of a 5 dice ATTACK. The unit is then moved 1 area into any adjacent non-lava area chosen by the opposing player.


Actually we have seen the differences in the English and French rules and have a good idea of how lava works now.

- You always immediately suffer a 5 dice attack upon entering each dormant lava area, whether it's you or your opponent that moves your unit there.

- If you enter a dormant lava space, you decide which area to exit to.

- If your opponent forces you unit to enter a lava hex, he/she decides which area your units exits to.

- You can never end your activation in lava.

- You can never enter an active lava area unless your opponent forces your unit to, in which case the unit suffers a 7 dice attack.

I'm sure I'm not using all the correct terms but you know what I mean.
One of our first games was a three player game on the lava map, we realised during setup that most forces where stuck in their deployment areas because of the lava rules in the english rules. We added bridges to make it playable. Now we can go back and play this again.
 
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Jens Larsen
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Quote:
One of our first games was a three player game on the lava map, we realised during setup that most forces where stuck in their deployment areas because of the lava rules in the english rules. We added bridges to make it playable. Now we can go back and play this again.


I am working on the assumption that the map/board is correct. If it is correct, to me it makes no sense that in a three player game, one player will have easy access by bridge to 5 omphalos, whereas two other players will not.

If the map/board is not correct, then it would be missing bridges for two deployment zones in 3 and 4 player skirmish games. I have a hard time imagining Mythic Games making such a blunder (although you never know...)

Finally: In the "Triple Threat" "Let's Play" video with Beasts of War, Leo explains how units may jump across the lava in the volcano map.

Here is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9JGpPqz3dg&feature=youtu.be

The interesting bit comes around the 00:21:50 mark.

Basically, you can "enter" (Leo's word) any lava area in the map, as long as it is part of a "jump" across the lava. Crossing the lava area costs one point of movement. So if you are standing in an area adjacent to an area of lava, you pay one point of movement to enter and cross the lava area, and one point to enter the area on the other side. Easy if you have a Movement stat of 2 or more. For a movement stat of 1, you need to run to jump over. And for a movement stat of 0 (due to being low on vitality), the jump is not possible, since even running will only allow you 1 movement point.

Now, I realize that that game was played with an earlier version of the rules and some things were changed since then. But using jumping to cross lava like this makes sense to me. Because otherwise, some players will be at a huge disadvantage if they were unable to draft either fireproof or flying units.

So the two kinds of lava fulfill two different purposes game mechanic-wise:
- Dormant lava is for incurring an extra movement cost and for interesting targets for Mighty Throw.
- Erupting lava is for actual barriers to movement and for even worse targets for Mighty Throw.

Anyway, that's my take on the lava.
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D Conklin
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We still need the official answer to the two questions above...

I hope we get them soon.
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Tyrone
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Evil_X wrote:
Pikaraph wrote:
There's one thing I would ask about lava :
When you move into lava and you die there, where do you drop your Omphalos : in the lava ?


Yes, Omphalos can be dropped in lava.


Also this. If you can drop Omphalos on Lava, then how do you pick it back up if you can't end your movement on Lava?

If only fireproof and flying units can end their movement on lava, that would be very, very unfair as there are only very few units that are classified as such, and drafting 4-player games on a lava map would be virtually impossible if not totally skewed towards the player who'd be able to draft fireproof and/or flying units first.
 
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