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Subject: Legacy vs Campaign and HELP to play them. rss

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Terry Ash
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Firstly, this is about classification - I know that there is classification difference between Legacy and Campaign style board games which has really only one distinction between them. A legacy game requires your permanently alter your game. This is something that I refuse to do so I go out of my way to get around it.

1: If a card would be destroyed, I simply put it somewhere so we don’t use it again.

2: Altering the game with stickers. I copy the stickers and use removable stickers.

3: Writing on a game board or your cards. On the board I use non-permanent stickers. And for cards ... I sleeve them anyways, so copy the card and mark away.

4: Adding Components - when you open that new part of the game, obviously do so with care so it can be reversed with minimal effort. And take a picture and list out what was in that box or sleeve so you can reverse it.

5: I can’t think of any more permanent alterations than that, but I am sure that there are.


So, this brings me back to classification. If you can reverse the changes of a Legacy game, isn’t really just a Campaign game? I challenge that there really shouldn’t be a separate classification.

As an example, there is a Deadpool card (promo) “Deadpool’s Taco Truck” for Marvel Munchkin or any of Munchkin promo bookmarks which are supposed to be destroyed after use. So, if this one single card was actually in the base game, it has been magically converted into a legacy game. I challenge that this category is unnecessary. The adding in of addition components is simply a built in expansion and the alteration of a card is simply an included promo card. Sure the game evolves as you play it but so does Descent, Myth or Mechs and Minions but nothing is destroyed and the game can be reset.

Legacy or Campaign? Is there a difference? I think not!


Now, onto the next topic. So, I have over 200 base games on a constantly revolving basis. I also have friends that bring their own games to the table as well. We only have time for a couple of game nights per week so these nights are precious. Not everyone shows up every time and we would never turn anyone away if they wanted to join us because we know everyone’s time is such a commodity these days. I used to only have a couple campaign style games. Now I have quite a few (and about to have a couple more with 7th Continent and Sleepy Hollow) and just realized that it’s hard to get the same players together and only the same players together to play them. Our game group attendance is from 3-10, usually hovering around 5. This is really the toughest number. Not quite enough for two separate tables and excludes the play of many games outright, including pretty much all campaign games. And not all legacy games are for all players.

How to make this work? I am at a loss. Without exclusion or setting up a special night which we don’t have time for. I was under the impression that if we could get the game group to be a little larger so the average player count was 7-8 instead of 5 that might work but I haven’t been able to maintain it.

Any ideas?


Campaign game list:

7th Continent
Arcadia Quest: Inferno
Gloomhaven
Hero Realms: The Ruin of Thandar
Legends of Sleepy Hollow
Marvel Legendary - (Home Brew Campaign mode)
Mechs Vs Minions
Myth
Near and Far
Pandemic Legacy Season 1
Pathfinder Adventure Card Game
Sentinel Tactics
Sentinels of the Multiverse - (Homebrew Campaign Mode)
Space Cadets: Away Mission








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Coming from a war game perspective, a campaign is a series of individual games (battles) where each game affects the games yet to come. Nothing is permanently altered, and the campaign is infinitely replayable. I have no use for a legacy game.
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'Bernard Wingrave'
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Our approach with Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Rise of the Runelords was initially to separately track the characters and re-set the box to the appropriate state for a given group. This turned out to be a huge pain, so lately we have not been taking it to game night -- the primary group of players is my wife, my stepson and me. So when the three of us are together, we usually play PACG. When I go to a game night, I take other games. Once we finish the last adventure deck for PACG, I might re-set the box for beginning characters and start taking it to game nights again.

In terms of campaign games, I read that Legacy of Dragonholt (which is a campaign game, despite "Legacy" being in the name) can be played effectively without always having the same group. It might be lighter than what you are after.

I don't really have a good solution for a campaign game other than strictly playing it when you have the same core group of players. Will be watching to see what others say.
 
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Ethan Yanyo
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Legacy games are a subset of campaign games that are designed to be permanently altered by destroying components, writing on components, etc. Even if a small number of gamers go out of their way to subvert that doesn't change the intention of the game's design.

RikHavok wrote:
Legacy or Campaign? Is there a difference? I think not!


This question seems akin to asking if there's a difference between squares and rectangles, which of course there is.


To answer your other question though, I wouldn't bring legacy or campaign games to our gaming meetups for a few reasons. First of all, our meetups are held in public (at local gaming stores) and I wouldn't want to play anything with potential spoilers out in the open that could affect the game for others that might want to play it. Second, we get a lot of people at meetups and, similarly to what you mention everyone brings their own games they want to get played. So, with a lot of people and games, it's hard to guarantee that you can get the same core group of three or four people playing through the same campaign game at any given game night. Of course a lot of campaign games support players dropping in or out, a changing number of characters, etc. but most reward sticking with the same players throughout, even if just so everyone knows the story and characters.

I don't know how feasible this is for you, but if we want to play a legacy or campaign game, it's either just my wife and me, in which case we can just play together anytime we're at home, or we have a designated group and make plans to get together outside of our regularly planned gaming meetups for the sole purpose of playing that game (and when we do this can usually get through a few games/scenarios in a night). We've done this with Mice & Mystics, both seasons of Pandemic Legacy, and now Charterstone and Gloomhaven. It works out pretty well for us, but again, I don't know if this would be possible based on your self-described busy schedules.
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Terry Ash
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Good ideas if my Girlfriend would participate. She is the factor why my time is limited as she is pretty much done with gaming.

 
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Terry Ash
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EYanyo wrote:

This question seems akin to asking if there's a difference between squares and rectangles, which of course there is.


And using your metaphor, I see it more and a triangle vs an isosceles triangle.

both are triangles. One just has a few extra mechanics.

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RikHavok wrote:
Firstly, this is about classification - I know that there is classification difference between Legacy and Campaign style board games which has really only one distinction between them. A legacy game requires your permanently alter your game. This is something that I refuse to do so I go out of my way to get around it.

1: If a card would be destroyed, I simply put it somewhere so we don’t use it again.

2: Altering the game with stickers. I copy the stickers and use removable stickers.

3: Writing on a game board or your cards. On the board I use non-permanent stickers. And for cards ... I sleeve them anyways, so copy the card and mark away.


One might argue that you are not following the game rules, but rather altering them with your own house rules to change the game. If you want to consider that nonetheless you're still playing the same game, then sure you can say that every legacy game is a campaign game. (I am not into legacy games, but I think many legacy fans would say that you are not playing the same game...)

But I'm not sure whether that's any different in principle from an argument like "The rules of Scrabble say that you can only place tiles which form valid English words. But we don't like that, so we play that you can put any tiles in any order, with no vocabulary element. And therefore, there is no real distinction between 'word games' like Scrabble and normal tile-laying games." or "We don't like the dexterity element of Crokinole, so we play that you can measure and calculate the direction of each shot. So there's no real distinction between 'dexterity games' and physics simulation games."

Hmm, I'm also reminded of the endless debates about Hidden but Trackable Information and memory elements in games. Is memory an integral part of such games or not? Is permanent alteration an integral part of legacy games or not?
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Terry Ash
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russ wrote:
RikHavok wrote:
Firstly, this is about classification - I know that there is classification difference between Legacy and Campaign style board games which has really only one distinction between them. A legacy game requires your permanently alter your game. This is something that I refuse to do so I go out of my way to get around it.

1: If a card would be destroyed, I simply put it somewhere so we don’t use it again.

2: Altering the game with stickers. I copy the stickers and use removable stickers.

3: Writing on a game board or your cards. On the board I use non-permanent stickers. And for cards ... I sleeve them anyways, so copy the card and mark away.


One might argue that you are not following the game rules, but rather altering them with your own house rules to change the game. If you want to consider that nonetheless you're still playing the same game, then sure you can say that every legacy game is a campaign game. (I am not into legacy games, but I think many legacy fans would say that you are not playing the same game...)

But I'm not sure whether that's any different in principle from an argument like "The rules of Scrabble say that you can only place tiles which form valid English words. But we don't like that, so we play that you can put any tiles in any order, with no vocabulary element. And therefore, there is no real distinction between 'word games' like Scrabble and normal tile-laying games." or "We don't like the dexterity element of Crokinole, so we play that you can measure and calculate the direction of each shot. So there's no real distinction between 'dexterity games' and physics simulation games."

Hmm, I'm also reminded of the endless debates about Hidden but Trackable Information and memory elements in games. Is memory an integral part of such games or not? Is permanent alteration an integral part of legacy games or not?


I’m sorrry. I guess I didn’t explain it right. I was trying to make the concept of tearing up a card or altering the game in these minor was as a mechanic, not a change in category.

 
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Pete
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I think that "Legacy" means that the rules change from game to game primarily based on the player choices. "Campaign" means that the rules change from game to game based primarily on the designer's choices.

In both types of games, the endgame results may carry over from game to game as well, though this tends to be far more important for a Campaign game than it is for a Legacy game, many of which just reset to zero with each iteration.

Accordingly, two groups playing a Legacy game will have significantly different resulting rule sets, while two groups playing a Campaign game will have approximately equal resulting rule sets.

Pete (thinks there's a lot of overlap but that's what he thinks is the key distinction)
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RikHavok wrote:
So, this brings me back to classification. If you can reverse the changes of a Legacy game, isn’t really just a Campaign game?


Unlike pretty much all other classification, Legacy is about components, not mechanics, while Campaign is still a mechanism. So, as I see it, you're just making component changes to a Legacy game, almost like blinging a game.

Before Legacy game were known as Legacy games, there was a card game where you scratched off that silvery stuff from the card then did something with it. Dunno how you'd keep that from being Legacy. Also, in the past, there was a Metagame and a book, where you followed clues and dug up or otherwise found a monetary treasure. Pretty obviously, none of the players decided to make the game non-Legacy!

BTW, Magic the Gathering's ante is an interesting Legacy-like "mechanic" that doesn't destroy components, yet can definitely have an effect on your game if you lose or gain a card that you cannot replace. Likewise, collectible game tournaments sometimes have prizes that cannot be obtained outside of the tournament, and these prizes can affect on one's game. Then, there's Magic's Type II format, which rotates legal cards for tournaments, permanently voiding older cards, without destroying them.

Also, of course, you can destroy components of a non-Legacy game just like you can preserve components of a Legacy one. If you play a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book, you may wish to make notes in the book. Or, if you play Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, you can mark up your character card. You can even give your Kingdom Death Monster miniature a Viking funeral.

IMO, A Legacy game has rules which tell you to destroy, add, or otherwise alter components. You don't have to follow these rules, but then, technically, you are *house ruling* the rules. Of course, you can design a game to give players the option to permanently alter components (eg. Gloomhaven's removable stickers), but that's no different than expansion sets. IIRC, Going back to Pathfinder, the designer gives players plenty of leeway in deciding which cards to add to their card pool, which definitely has an effect on gameplay.
 
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BG.EXE
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Learn to stop worrying and love the Legacy. It’s a tiny subset of games. Your process would make Pandemic Legacy (particularly 2) unbearable and completely unfun.
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RikHavok wrote:
A legacy game requires your permanently alter your game. This is something that I refuse to do so I go out of my way to get around it.

Quote:
Legacy or Campaign? Is there a difference? I think not!

If you have to go out of your way (in your own words) to avoid making permanent alterations, then obviously there is a difference.
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CARL SKUTSCH
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RikHavok wrote:
Legacy or Campaign? Is there a difference? I think not!

Piffle.

They are two separate descriptive words. People use them differently. People call Near and Far a campaign game and Charterstone a legacy game. You may use various workarounds to modify Charterstone and turn it into some kind of campaign game, and people will still call it a legacy game. You can jump up and down screaming that "it's a campaign game, no different than any other campaign game! I've proven it!" and people will smile bemusedly at you and keep calling it a legacy game. That's how language works.

To me, Near and Far and Charterstone are significantly different games. To me, "legacy" is a useful label in describing games. You've proven otherwise? Nah. Cuz I'll keep using the word "legacy", as will most gamers on this site. And so "legacy" will continue to have a meaning different than "campaign." Because that's how language works. It's descriptive of how people see things, it's not a logical program.

But you go on saying there's no difference. I don't mind.

Poll
Is there a difference between "legacy" games and "campaign" games?
Yes, they are different.
Yes, with some caveats.
I'm not sure.
There's not much difference.
There is no difference.
      71 answers
Poll created by skutsch
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BG.EXE
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Charterstone is another game that would be totally tedious and unfun if you tried to remove the Legacy from it. You’d be spending triple the time “scanning and printing removable stickers” as you would actually playing the game.
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RikHavok wrote:
EYanyo wrote:

This question seems akin to asking if there's a difference between squares and rectangles, which of course there is.


And using your metaphor, I see it more and a triangle vs an isosceles triangle.

both are triangles. One just has a few extra mechanics.



There's no difference in the metaphor because squares are also rectangles.
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Trent Boardgamer
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Quote:
How to make this work? I am at a loss. Without exclusion or setting up a special night which we don’t have time for. I was under the impression that if we could get the game group to be a little larger so the average player count was 7-8 instead of 5 that might work but I haven’t been able to maintain it.


Well it seems you've already excluded the only way I've been able to make them work (if you actually want to play through the campaign, versus just get the game played.

I normally recruit a group to meet on a specific night/day separate from any established meet-ups I'm already committed to. For the most part they simply don't work with uncommitted players or players that can't commit to the agreed meet-up time. If people say they can't always make it, I apologise and explain it won't work out under that scenario.

I have different groups for Pandemic Legacy, Kingdom Death Monster, Shadows of Brimstone and Gloomhaven at present (Some people belong to multiple play groups).

PS> They really aren't that friendly for people with very limited gaming time.

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Terry Ash
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Ethereality wrote:
RikHavok wrote:
EYanyo wrote:

This question seems akin to asking if there's a difference between squares and rectangles, which of course there is.


And using your metaphor, I see it more and a triangle vs an isosceles triangle.

both are triangles. One just has a few extra mechanics.



There's no difference in the metaphor because squares are also rectangles.


Actually, if forgot. You are correct. If Campaign is the rectangle, then the legacy game is the square. A subset of a category.

 
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We played PL every other session of our weekly strategy game meetup for a few months, and that worked pretty well. We will do the same thing for Season 2, I think.

No-one was really excluded, as I invited anyone who wanted to play and was willing to commit to join in at the start. After that, we would always notify the non-PL-players in our Wechat group when it was a PL night. Sometimes a couple of others would show up and play their own 2-player game. Sometimes they would skip a week. Once a player new to Pandemic turned up just to watch us, so he could learn the mechanics. (We did warn him about spoilers, but he has was fine with them.)

We play in a regular cafe, not a game shop, so spoilers are not an issue for any other customers.

Some legacy games also work well with a pool of people who need not all show up each time, and I guess this would be true of some campaign games too. We played Risk Legacy with a pool of 7, with 4 or 5 playing in each session. It worked fine, and even when one of our original players moved away after 1 game, his city just served rather like the lost tribes in Small World and did not cause the rest of us too many problems. This kind of game could be a good option for your group.
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Terry Ash
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plezercruz wrote:
I think that "Legacy" means that the rules change from game to game primarily based on the player choices. "Campaign" means that the rules change from game to game based primarily on the designer's choices.

In both types of games, the endgame results may carry over from game to game as well, though this tends to be far more important for a Campaign game than it is for a Legacy game, many of which just reset to zero with each iteration.

Accordingly, two groups playing a Legacy game will have significantly different resulting rule sets, while two groups playing a Campaign game will have approximately equal resulting rule sets.

Pete (thinks there's a lot of overlap but that's what he thinks is the key distinction)


You know what, This argument makes the most sense to me thus far. It is still just a minor difference. As Horror is a considered a sub-class of Science Fiction. I have always seen that Horror should be a sub-set of Fantasy. However, I would argue that Legacy as still a sub-set because in a Choose your own adventure book or a video game that was designed by the designer, you are still within the framework designed by the creators of the game. IF you were to homebrew something, yes, that is what removes it from what the designer had intended.

And, again, to clarify - The alterations that I mentioned were simply to illustrate the point of the minor change as a minor difference. I just like the ability to reset the game and start again. Someone mentioned Charterstone. Stonemaier Games even sells an option to allow you to reset their “Legacy” game. This is no different.

Thank you for your argument, Pete.
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Terry Ash
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chinagirlgeek wrote:
We played PL every other session of our weekly strategy game meetup for a few months, and that worked pretty well. We will do the same thing for Season 2, I think.

No-one was really excluded, as I invited anyone who wanted to play and was willing to commit to join in at the start. After that, we would always notify the non-PL-players in our Wechat group when it was a PL night. Sometimes a couple of others would show up and play their own 2-player game. Sometimes they would skip a week. Once a player new to Pandemic turned up just to watch us, so he could learn the mechanics. (We did warn him about spoilers, but he has was fine with them.)

We play in a regular cafe, not a game shop, so spoilers are not an issue for any other customers.

Some legacy games also work well with a pool of people who need not all show up each time, and I guess this would be true of some campaign games too. We played Risk Legacy with a pool of 7, with 4 or 5 playing in each session. It worked fine, and even when one of our original players moved away after 1 game, his city just served rather like the lost tribes in Small World and did not cause the rest of us too many problems. This kind of game could be a good option for your group.


Actually, thank you! You gave me the idea that I think I needed. Sounds so simple, I don’t know why I didn’t see it. Firstly, we play at the homes of players not at a game shop. So, I really don’t care about spoilers. Watching the same great movie twice, will be great the second time and if it wasn’t great, i wouldn’t want to see it again. And if it wasn’t good, I can’t see finishing the campaign anyways, which is another reason that I feel it should be resetable. At least I could give it away or trade it or something.

So, It is as simple as that, just announce ahead of time that we will be playing this game this night. We will have 1 night ever couple of weeks for campaign games. If you want to come, great, you can watch or play something else. We have games for all player counts (1-99) and ages (5 and up). So, if someone else shows up, they can feel free to grab a game and play it.

I was so hung up on getting that 8-10 people showing up that I didn’t realize that it really doesn’t matter. Funny thing, this might actually make the actual attendance count grow because they may get sucked into a separate campaign game on those nights since we have so many campaign games waiting to be played.

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Terry Ash
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I’m not trying to argue with anyone. I am not trying to change anyone else’s opinions. I am not on a soap box. Rude comments aren’t needed here. Perhaps, people should think before they post rudeness.

I was simply stating that to me, there is no difference. I was looking for others opinions in the matter. I was not asking to be insulted or insult anyone in the matter. Obviously, I offended someone.
 
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With the exception of Gloomhaven (since the Legacy system is primarily like a save-state), Legacy games are different from campaign games. They may have similarities, but they feel very different.

Other than slowly breaking the player into the full rules (Mechs vs Minions, Legends of Andor), campaign games rules are set. Between games you're not going to get a new piece of information that overrides an existing rule or adds a new rule that significantly changes how you play the game.

The permanency is also, often, to a lesser degree. Yes, you may level up and acquire skills and get new equipment. But, you rarely (never?) shape the actual world you're playing in. You don't get to the end of a campaign, look at the board and see a history of your choices. At best, you might have a few things jotted down on some pieces of paper.

I realize people want to be able to replay or trade away Legacy games, but going into most trying to solve the permanence "problem" is going to suck the enjoyment out of these games. With both Pandemic Legacy games, it would make the games frustrating. I don't even want to think about all the workarounds someone would have to implement to reset Pandemic Legacy Season 2.

If you want to play a Legacy game, then play it Legacy. If heavily altering the game as you play is too much to ask, then skip it.
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RikHavok wrote:
I’m not trying to argue with anyone. I am not trying to change anyone else’s opinions. I am not on a soap box. Rude comments aren’t needed here. Perhaps, people should think before they post rudeness.

I was simply stating that to me, there is no difference. I was looking for others opinions in the matter. I was not asking to be insulted or insult anyone in the matter. Obviously, I offended someone.

You were upset that I said "piffle"? Sorry, no intention to hurt your feelings. I don't think you personally are piffle, just some of the stuff you were saying.

Now, when you say "I’m not trying to argue with anyone. I am not trying to change anyone else’s opinions", well...
RikHavok wrote:
So, this brings me back to classification. If you can reverse the changes of a Legacy game, isn’t really just a Campaign game? I challenge that there really shouldn’t be a separate classification.
...
Legacy or Campaign? Is there a difference? I think not!

That sounded like arguing a position to me, with an exclamation point and everything. Now you have every right to argue a point-of-view, but when you do it online, you may get a little pushback, and even a touch of piffle. I'm known far and wide for my piffle. I've also been known to dish out some balderdash, bosh, and poppycock. I'm full of the stuff.

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VaultBoy wrote:
I realize people want to be able to replay or trade away Legacy games, but going into most trying to solve the permanence "problem" is going to suck the enjoyment out of these games. With both Pandemic Legacy games, it would make the games frustrating. I don't even want to think about all the workarounds someone would have to implement to reset Pandemic Legacy Season 2.


Agreed. I rated Pandemic Legacy a 10 and am very much enjoying Pandemic Legacy: Season 2, which I suspect will also get a high rating.

However, if I had to do all the work described by the OP whenever new content appears in the game, then I wouldn't have said it was worth the effort.

As someone who obsessively sleeves his games, even when it's not really necessary, I certainly understand the sentiment behind trying to make Legacy games replayable... but it's not worth it in this case.

VaultBoy wrote:
If you want to play a Legacy game, then play it Legacy. If heavily altering the game as you play is too much to ask, then skip it.


I'd agree with this as well. If the idea of a legacy game doesn't appeal, then don't play a legacy game. They've been designed to be played once and then disposed of.
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GSReis wrote:
RikHavok wrote:
A legacy game requires your permanently alter your game. This is something that I refuse to do so I go out of my way to get around it.

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Legacy or Campaign? Is there a difference? I think not!

If you have to go out of your way (in your own words) to avoid making permanent alterations, then obviously there is a difference.


+1

If i hated the idea of modifying components, then bought a copy of Charterstone because i saw it was a 'campaign' game, i would be utterly, utterly pissed if it wasnt resettable out of the box.

For me, Legacy means 'campaign game that is not resettable out of the box'.
Sure, you could just write 'campaign game where you place stickers, write on the board, and rip cards up, permanently altering the game state....but at that point, you may as well just use the word legacy.

It makes it easier for folks who dislike that style of game to skip past it.
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