Recommend
18 
 Thumb up
 Hide
156 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [7] | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Board Game Design » Board Game Design

Subject: Dungeon crawl complaints rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andrew Lowen
United States
Fallbrook
California
flag msg tools
designer
DeliveranceTheGame.com
badge
The battle between Heaven & Hell will soon be waged at your table. Deliverance is coming...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dungeon crawls like Gloomhaven are super epic experiences that really take you into another world. But for many, they just sit in the box because...

- They take 30+ mins to set up
- Many of them can’t be “saved” and must remain on the table (for the kids to eat and/or destroy)
- They take forever to play through with more than 2 players
- Most “no dungeon master” crawlers have enemy turns that take way longer than player turns
- Fear of reading a 40-page rulebook keeps them not only in the box, but in the shrink-wrap

So my question to you all is... what bothers you about the dungeon crawls that you own, and why do they just sit in the box?

Edit: Yes, I am working on a dungeon crawl about Angels vs Demons called Deliverance
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian Williams
Wales
Ammanford
Carmarthenshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I agree with those, especially those long enemy turns. For me (and in particular recent dud Massive Darkness) it's a case of...

- Generic fantasy theme and characters with no attempt to be different.
- Linear level designs with no choices. Just move forward & fight.
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Schroeder
United States
Lewiston
New York
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
All of the reasons you mentioned but the biggest turn off to me is the waiting for other players to take their turns and figure things out. “Well if I use this potion and this armor I’ll have this probability of beating this guy...” I prefer games with less player downtime.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Kyo
Japan
Osaka
flag msg tools
Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
badge
Why for this life there's no man smart enough, life's too short for learning every trick and bluff.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lowenhigh wrote:
Dungeon crawls like Gloomhaven...

I was under the impression that there aren't any dungeon crawls like Gloomhaven, but then I don't group games by theme alone.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adrian Pillai
France
Paris
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
edit: in retrospect, it's not the rules that keep me away. Though my brain is mostly mush nowadays, incapable of enjoying anything but simple mechanics done Squirrel! elegantly.

Correction: The rulebook. It's always the rulebook. My group. It's always my group of friends. Having to be the one that has to reread, remind and reexplain the rules again and again to the other players....

I just can't anymore... I don't have the patience nor space to bury any more bodies.
21 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Lowen
United States
Fallbrook
California
flag msg tools
designer
DeliveranceTheGame.com
badge
The battle between Heaven & Hell will soon be waged at your table. Deliverance is coming...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mike6423 wrote:
All of the reasons you mentioned but the biggest turn off to me is the waiting for other players to take their turns and figure things out. “Well if I use this potion and this armor I’ll have this probability of beating this guy...” I prefer games with less player downtime.


Makes sense. I like the idea of optimizing turns, but sometimes that can lead to such close alternatives that people get paralyzed with indecision. The other issue that arises out of this is that one player (usually the “professional”) tries to tell you how to play and chides you for playing inefficiently.

The best DC would have multiple options that are all good, but have some form of different drawbacks for each option. Tough to do.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl
Canada
Laval
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


I love the idea and the spirit of a dungeon crawl game. I will forever be attracted to the genre. Epic adventures with friends, loot, treasure, mystery, cool ennemies... What's not to like??

Unfortunately, for the reasons you mentioned, many dungeon crawls fall flat... Not that they are necessarily badly designed games (although sometimes they are) but they just don't seem to translate well into our real daily lives. Too big, too difficult to get a campaign going with other busy adults, etc.

For me personally, the perfect dungeon crawl games that satisfy that dungeon crawl itch are the games in the D&D Adventure System Board Games:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/9547/dungeons-and-...

They are not the perfect board games, but as far as dungeon crawls go, they are quick, easy to setup, have good components, and get the job done well. 2 hours tops from the moment we open the box to the moment we close it (after playing one chapter).

Now to answer your question. The biggest dungeon crawl fail for me was the game Myth:

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/140519/myth


I spend $200 on the Kickstarter 3 years ago for the game and ALL the Kickstarter bonuses/exclusives and the game was a huge disappointment. We only played it twice and sold it. The components were amazing but the game was way too complex for the experience it provides. There's hardly any adventuring or exploring. It's basically just a square tile with enemies around your characters. A skirmish with no soul.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jo Bartok
Germany
Zwingenberg
Hessen
flag msg tools
Interaction leads to Immersion.
badge
Immersion leads to Fun.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
* 1vsMany is really 1vs-multiplayer-solitaire, aka endless-discussions and/or alpha-gamey
* Any "AI" controlled game failed miserably in terms of tension and felt more like a (more or less) boring puzzle
* Often there is lack of depth, no overreaching arch in terms of story, flat linear story-telling

Let me list my experiences:
- D&D Board Game System: DEAD boring
- Gloomhaven mostly a boring puzzle, if you are honest about it
- Descent 2nd Edition: Boring Jump&Run with no spirit/depth
- Descent 1st Edition: Road To Legend: Endless Discussions, but great gameplay
- Level 7 Omega Protocol: Endless Discussions, but great gameplay
- Old Doom: Endless Discussions, but great gameplay
- New Doom: Fast and good gameplay but feels shallow (story, immersion)
- SWIA: Campain Snowballs like hell, Star Wars ain't my thing, there is no real story progression
- Claustrophobia: Gameplay is medicore at best (but a good 2player game nevertheless)

I have played most of these games for countless hours nevertheless, topped by Descent 1st Edition 120h Advanced Campaign with 5 people and Gloomhaven with 4-5 people for about the same time consumption.

There is a lot to be done in this genre but the trend is "coop" and not like in coordinative or collaborative but in "dead boring"-zombicide...

ah yes:
- Folklore: The Affliction: Game is nice but miniatures combat is dead boring
- Perditions Mouth: Lots of figure blocking, the rondel is no fun and feels pure mechanic
- Nova Aetas: Again the Rondel is no fun, the tactics are bland
- Zombicide Black Plage: Whats that crap?
- Massive Darkness: Boring, campaign doesnt work, nice components
- Arcadia Quest: Chibi style annoys a lot, the PvPvE part is really good
- Super Fantasy: Not polished enough, nice dice system
- Earth Reborn: Not really a crawler, too much luck and AP, rather great guard rules
- Vast: Each player has to read rules for about 30 minutes on their own. Goblins are hard to understand/play (we will see if that is improved in the 2nd printing/edition to arrive soon)
- LoL Board Game (forgot the title): Neither a dungeon crawl nor a miniatures game but more like robo rally in (even more) boring.

... well, well
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Arias
United States
Sanford
FLORIDA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For canonical high fantasy I haven't found the balance between too basic (Dark World) and too complex (many of the others). Never played it, but I like a lot of the elements of Warhammer Quest. Like many folks here I'm working on my own crawler, mashing up the features I like from other titles.

I'm also still looking for the perfect cyberpunk crawler. Specter Ops and Rogue Agent have the right look but are not crawlers. There are some tactical looking games on KS but not scratching the itch.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gláucio Reis
Brazil
Rio de Janeiro
RJ
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lowenhigh wrote:
- They take 30+ mins to set up
- Most “no dungeon master” crawlers have enemy turns that take way longer than player turns
- Fear of reading a 40-page rulebook keeps them not only in the box, but in the shrink-wrap

Those three are deal-breakers to me, and PvP elements would be another. About your last point, I don't think "fear" is the right word, and it sounds a bit pedantic to me. I have no fear of reading a long rulebook. I just don't have any desire to do it, mostly because I know I will not be able to remember everything and will have to look up rules frequently during the game. That's not the experience that I want from any game, especially a dungeon crawler. It's called personal preference, not fear.

Quote:
So my question to you all is... what bothers you about the dungeon crawls that you own, and why do they just sit in the box?

I don't buy a lot of dungeon crawlers, for all the reasons I quoted above, and have only one that sadly "sits in the box": Descent. The only reason is the requirement of an overlord player. I don't have a regular group for this kind of game, and fully cooperative dungeon crawlers have a much better chance of hitting the table, even because I can play them solo. The D&D boardgames are my favorites.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Krista Rakozy
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
My dungeon crawl games sit in the box mainly because of time. And the main reason being is we never finish.

And what bothers me about that is you should either say on the box, "This game takes 3-4 hours for your 1st play thorough" or make a fun short tutorial quest to learn the game. Just my opinion. My husband hates tutorials in every sense but I find them useful when playing a cooperative long board game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pelle Nilsson
Sweden
Linköping
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kritakatt wrote:
My dungeon crawl games sit in the box mainly because of time. And the main reason being is we never finish.

And what bothers me about that is you should either say on the box, "This game takes 3-4 hours for your 1st play thorough" or make a fun short tutorial quest to learn the game. Just my opinion. My husband hates tutorials in every sense but I find them useful when playing a cooperative long board game.


Dont call it a tutorial, just make the first mission very small and simple, add on more advanced monsters etc in later missions, mark clearly what chapters of the rulebook are needed for each.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Herr
United States
Palos Hills
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I played one... ONCE!... about a year ago called DungeonQuest. The sum total of my game experience? Placed all of three tiles, drew a card - apparently the WRONG card - and instantly died after a single die roll. (The irony was not lost) Out of the game, not having made a single non-random decision, right, wrong, or otherwise. I then watched TV for two hours while the rest of the group continued.

Yeah, big fun.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Lowen
United States
Fallbrook
California
flag msg tools
designer
DeliveranceTheGame.com
badge
The battle between Heaven & Hell will soon be waged at your table. Deliverance is coming...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
OldPhartWargamer wrote:
I played one... ONCE!... about a year ago called DungeonQuest. The sum total of my game experience? Placed all of three tiles, drew a card - apparently the WRONG card - and instantly died after a single die roll. (The irony was not lost) Out of the game, not having made a single non-random decision, right, wrong, or otherwise. I then watched TV for two hours while the rest of the group continued.

Yeah, big fun.


lol... seems like some more playtesting was needed before that game released 🔥😂🔥
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Arias
United States
Sanford
FLORIDA
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lowenhigh wrote:
OldPhartWargamer wrote:
I played one... ONCE!... about a year ago called DungeonQuest. The sum total of my game experience? Placed all of three tiles, drew a card - apparently the WRONG card - and instantly died after a single die roll. (The irony was not lost) Out of the game, not having made a single non-random decision, right, wrong, or otherwise. I then watched TV for two hours while the rest of the group continued.

Yeah, big fun.


lol... seems like some more playtesting was needed before that game released 🔥😂🔥


I think dungeonQuest is more of "whoever dies last, with the most gold wins". I've seen jokes about peoples' win rates being sub 25%. It's a different take on the crawler idea, lot of elements that are too random. Also too many card decks including drawing a card that makes you draw a card from a different deck.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Keane
United States
Medford
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Usually they are either too random, particularly in the dungeon generation, or they are too puzzly in the combat. What I want is exploration more like a video game, where the dungeon and encounters are non-random but only revealed on the table as you explore; this is hard to do in cardboard form without a DM. I want combat to be quick hack-and-slash or fleeing manically from big monsters, less about tactical positioning/optimizing a puzzle around the combat mechanisms.

Game length and long set-up/clean-up are issues, although if a game was saveable mid-scenario, that would be fine. I personally wish more use old-school paper and pencil and were more scarce component-wise.

Confusing monster AI/long monster turns are definitely a big turn off.

But I think I'm just not a big fan of what dungeon crawl board games have become, and what I want a dungeon crawl to be is far from what most other dungeon crawl fans want. Dungeon Run is probably my favorite, even though it has a lot of issues that benefit from house rules. And I still have fond memories of Dungeon! and wouldn't turn down a game of it if we had time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Kyo
Japan
Osaka
flag msg tools
Forward 1, Forward 2, Forward 3... siege attack 5?
badge
Why for this life there's no man smart enough, life's too short for learning every trick and bluff.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
OldPhartWargamer wrote:
I played one... ONCE!... about a year ago called DungeonQuest. The sum total of my game experience? Placed all of three tiles, drew a card - apparently the WRONG card - and instantly died after a single die roll. (The irony was not lost) Out of the game, not having made a single non-random decision, right, wrong, or otherwise. I then watched TV for two hours while the rest of the group continued.

Yeah, big fun.

How did DungeonQuest last more than 30 minutes? Was it the flawed FF edition between the original and the revised edition?) In any case, I think it is a unique game, so making any kind of generalisation from it is probably a bad idea.

FWIW I actually prefer DungeonQuest to many other games with similar themes, because it is so quick to play and it provides exactly the experience it aims to (NB: in our games the player(s) who die early then take over rock-paper-scissors for the monsters).
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hervan Rossi
Brazil
RJ
flag msg tools
mbmb
I hate dungeon crawlers because I hate RPGs, and if I wanted any experience similar to or emulating RPGs, I'd play an RPG (did I say I hate RPGs already?).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Harry Jacobs
Canada
Yellowknife
Northwest Territories
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
I think there some great Dungeon games out there that I enjoy, But the main reasons they don't get to the table are time it often takes to play them. Set up is a fact of life, for those who play heavier games, I mitigate this by being ready for the group play and setting up the board ahead of time. Then everyone pitches in at the end to put it away. Here are some of my favorite crawlers.

1) Runebound 2nd edition, not a dungeon crawler but has many similarities, it sets up fairly quickly and plays in a couple of hours. I do this one solo a lot. Rules are easy to understand, watch a play through and bingo you are in.

2) Gloomhaven, mine is still in the box un-punched, just waiting on my sleeves from Mayday to crack that puppy open and organize it. I will be playing with a regular group of 4 people at the club. The rules here are not nice, but once you catch on it is not to bad.

3) Descent 2nd edition, thanks to the app, this one is a breeze to get into now, with the app playing the overlord, grab your group, give them their stuff and away you go. It can play fairly quickly and with the app handling the heavy lifting it works pretty well. Along a similar line Mansion of Madness with the app is pretty nice as well. Easy rules, your basic move/search/fight game.

4) Massive Darkness, this is a lightweight Zombicide like game that can be fun, but suffers from a bit of imbalance as the experience system leans towards quick development of your characters making it too easy. I love Black Plague version of Zombicide, still simplistic but with a streamlined rules that Zombicide does not have. Not that I dislike Zombicide because the end game hordes make the game a lot of fun. A very easy game will it is move/search/fight and who does not taking down a horde of zombies with a chain saw.




1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jo Bartok
Germany
Zwingenberg
Hessen
flag msg tools
Interaction leads to Immersion.
badge
Immersion leads to Fun.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
D2E is not a dungeon crawler if you are honest about it, either. The only discovery aspects it got is search actions... meh.

D2E is as much a dungeon crawl as Wiz-War is one... (which is a far better game anyway ;-)

p.s. just cause i dislike most "dungeon crawlers" doesnt mean I dislike the genre, I love those games a lot... just doesnt mean they are perfect or near perfect.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gláucio Reis
Brazil
Rio de Janeiro
RJ
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
hervan wrote:
I hate dungeon crawlers because I hate RPGs, and if I wanted any experience similar to or emulating RPGs, I'd play an RPG (did I say I hate RPGs already?).

I have never played any RPG and have no desire to play one. That doesn't affect my enjoyment of dungeon crawlers at all.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jo Bartok
Germany
Zwingenberg
Hessen
flag msg tools
Interaction leads to Immersion.
badge
Immersion leads to Fun.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GSReis wrote:
hervan wrote:
I hate dungeon crawlers because I hate RPGs, and if I wanted any experience similar to or emulating RPGs, I'd play an RPG (did I say I hate RPGs already?).

I have never played any RPG and have no desire to play one. That doesn't affect my enjoyment of dungeon crawlers at all.


I do like the gamey parts of real dungeon crawlers. That's the reason I despite zombicide... nothing to gain. The requirement for a "good-will-storyteller-gm" of regular P&P games pretty much makes it hard to play, as well as the inability of many (possibly me, included) to play well in character. If there are gamy objectives and gamey mechanics, tactics, etc...the story - if designed well - unfolds from expected and unexpected gameplay consequences and choices.

As you can imagine there unfolds little story in zombicide et al (or D2E for that matter) as the choices are blant and it is mostly stuff happening expected or very much controllable without much tension.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pelle Nilsson
Sweden
Linköping
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ryan Keane wrote:
Usually they are either too random, particularly in the dungeon generation, or they are too puzzly in the combat. What I want is exploration more like a video game, where the dungeon and encounters are non-random but only revealed on the table as you explore; this is hard to do in cardboard form without a DM.


Not really. You could write a program that procedurally generates the dungeon, fills it with stuff in ways that makes sense, then output a sheet of two with tables that is what the player sees and uses to generate their dungeon as they explore it (instead of just rolling dice or drawing tiles). Generate a bunch and players can replay the game as much as they want without running out of new dungeons. Add a bit of hand-generated content to each one to make them more interesting.

But really I think a lot of the complaints come down to that it is probably just more fun for everyone to play a RPG instead. Tried to get into Mice and Mystics a few times with my kids, but it is so slow and so many steps to do that results in very little. Instead we keep coming back to Hero Kids that is a very simple RPG very close to being just a tactical (mostly dungeon crawl) boardgame. Sure I have to be GM and control the enemies, but it tend to be obvious what they do each turn. We are in the process of upgrading to Dungeon World though that is a proper RPG and not so much a board game, but I suspect the dungeon crawling will be even better that way.

In theory I really like the idea of dungeon crawl solo/coop board games. I have not played many since I read the reviews and decide I will probably not play them. Can never quite stop daydreaming about mechanics to design for them though.

We tried to play Four Against Darkness that uses pencil+paper to draw the dungeon and keep track of all stats, so it is trivial to store away (at least solves the problem of game being too long) but it has so many rules I found myself spend way too much time flipping back and forth in the rulebook trying to understand what to do. Something like that using only pencil+paper (and dice) instead of a table full of components for the cats to play with seems like a good idea to me, but I know many prefer their plastics and big cardboard tiles. If I design a game it will probably be closer to this. A character sheet with pencil on it is so much nicer to use (even if it looks uglier) than a player board with lots of tokens and cards on to keep track of, and it allows for the game to include many more interesting items and abilities.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Maxim Steshenko
Russia
Moscow
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pelni wrote:
Generate a bunch and players can replay the game as much as they want without running out of new dungeons. Add a bit of hand-generated content to each one to make them more interesting.


That's the problem with modern dungeon crawlers and role-playing board games in general. Instead of giving a player a game to play, designers try to convey The Epic Narrative for players to experience. And this entails rather strict and linear plot, which is constrained further by a limited content. On the other hand there are plenty of expansions to buy...

Another problems is the fact that dungeon crawlers failed to grow as a genre. It has been 29 years after the release of HeroQuest and we still spend most of the time fighting in fantasy dungeons as Somewhat Good characters. And even 'fighting' part didn't change that much, because most of the time characters step into a "room" (sometimes literally) and rub dice against each other.

Lowenhigh wrote:
Fear of reading a 40-page rulebook keeps them not only in the box, but in the shrink-wrap

A large rulebook never stopped me from opening a game. But I usually question why it should be that big. Fighting is not a rocket science, even if in most games "fighting" is just a pretty dressing for a resource management. A large rulebook simply implies that there are a lot of nuances. And half of them will be forgotten during first two sessions.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Herr
United States
Palos Hills
Illinois
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Benkyo wrote:
How did DungeonQuest last more than 30 minutes? Was it the flawed FF edition between the original and the revised edition?
It was the first time any of us had played, so we were learning as we went. And, to be fair, I'm probably remembering the time as longer than it really was. No idea what edition we had.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [7] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.