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Subject: Choose to not push some enemies? rss

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Chris Kessel
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I know you can skip part of an action, like doing an attack and not doing the push. However, I've got a "Push 2, target all adjacent enemies". Can I choose to push only some of the enemies and not others?
 
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Greg
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It's been awhile since I've played, so I may be wrong here. Thematically, if you are doing something to push all adjacent enemies 2 spaces, it would seem like one big motion that shouldn't be selective as far as which enemies to push. Sure it doesn't affect adjacent friendlies, but that's more of a mechanic of rhe game.
 
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Fito R
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I believe the choice you have is either not applying the added effect, or applying it to the fullest extent. In this case, you must push all enemies, and it must be Push 2.
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Michael Denman
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I don't know what the ruling is here, but thematically I don't see any problem with pushing selectively if you're allowed to push enemies only.
 
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Baker Odom
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Fito has it right. Just like you can’t choose to only deal 3 damage when you’ve generated 5 total damage, you can’t choose to affect only certain enemies in an AOE effect.
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Fito R
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Trump wrote:
I don't know what the ruling is here, but thematically I don't see any problem with pushing selectively if you're allowed to push enemies only.
"Thematically" is not something you should think when discussing Gloomhaven's rules. It's a euro game. It has some abstract rules. Leave your thematic quibbles at the door.
 
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David Carroll
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If you allow selective targeting, that will get you into trouble with things like damage abilities that affect both enemies and allies. I agree it's either all or nothing.
 
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Trond Roaas
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You could skip the push ability, but then it would be for all enemies, by skipping the push ability entirely.
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Bjorn B
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Like everyone else said: When it says target all adjacent enemies, it's all or nothing.



There are other possibilities, depending on the wording. When you do:

Attack 3, push 2
target 2


This is an attack ability with 2 attacks (1 on each target). Here you can choose for each attack target if the push happens or not. I use this in my own game, as I have an item which grants push to an entire ranged attack action.
 
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Des T.
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DobbelB wrote:
...as I have an item which...


I don't know if this is already spoiler territory, but it's definitely not a starter item.

Cool item, though.
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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FAQ wrote:
Do I have to push or pull the full amount?
Like any added effect, you can choose not to apply it, but if you do, you have to use the full push or pull effect. The only time the full push or pull may not go into effect is if there are obstacles or figures in the way and you may chose a blocked direction even if an unblocked one is available (note, however, that you can push or pull enemies through other enemy figures, they just can't end the movement in the same hex). Also keep in mind that if multiple push or pull effects are applied with the same ability (due to attack modifier cards), you can choose to apply or not apply them separately (e.g. if your ability applied a "push 1," and your attack modifier card applied a "push 1," you could decide to push 0, 1 or 2 since they are separate effects).


Gloomhaven Official FAQ PDF (Non-Spoilers)
 
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Fito R
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mlvanbie wrote:
FAQ wrote:
Do I have to push or pull the full amount?
Like any added effect, you can choose not to apply it, but if you do, you have to use the full push or pull effect. The only time the full push or pull may not go into effect is if there are obstacles or figures in the way and you may chose a blocked direction even if an unblocked one is available (note, however, that you can push or pull enemies through other enemy figures, they just can't end the movement in the same hex). Also keep in mind that if multiple push or pull effects are applied with the same ability (due to attack modifier cards), you can choose to apply or not apply them separately (e.g. if your ability applied a "push 1," and your attack modifier card applied a "push 1," you could decide to push 0, 1 or 2 since they are separate effects).


Gloomhaven Official FAQ PDF (Non-Spoilers)
That's out of date; you must push/pull the full amount if possible. Check the FAQ thread for the latest version.
 
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Trond Roaas
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Joou wrote:
That's out of date; you must push/pull the full amount if possible. Check the FAQ thread for the latest version.

The PDF FAQ is out of date and should be removed, but the gist of that text hasn't changed, I believe. Both texts state that you must push the full amount. But - I quite agree that one only should use the latest FAQ.

But, the point is:
As an added effect (for example to an attack), you could choose to apply the push or not for each target. But - you must choose before drawing an attack modifier card.
However - the ability described in the OP is not an added effect to an attack - it is an ability of its own, and you must AFAIK either perform the ability or skip the whole thing.

So, if the ability was:
Attack 1, push 2, target all adjacent enemies
or
Attack 5, range 3, push 1, target 4
or for that matter
Attack 1, push 1 (picture of a red hex pattern)
...Then you could choose to apply the push or not for each target, as long as you decide before drawing an attack modifier card, and if you push, you must push the full amount.

So, if the ability itself is not an attack, but a push, you must either decide to do it all or skip it entirely. You can't choose not to push per target, as the push then isn't an added effect.
If the ability was
Push 1, poison, target all adjacent enemies (the action card was probably named "Massive FartWind")
...Then you would have to push all adjacent enemies (or skip the entire ability altogether), but you could choose to poison each target or not, as the poison is an added effect.
If the ability was
Attack 2, push 9, target all adjacent enemies
...Then you would have to attack all adjacent enemies (or skip the ability altogether), but you could choose to apply the push or not per character, as it is an added effect.
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Presumably most recent FAQ wrote:
What happens if there are multiple push/pull effects used in the same ability?
If multiple push or pull effects are applied with the same ability (due to attack modifier cards), you can choose to apply or not apply them separately (e.g. if your ability applied a "push 1," and your attack modifier card applied a "push 1," you could decide to push 0, 1 or 2 since they are separate effects).


It doesn't say that prior to drawing attack cards you will need to decide whether you will be pushing 0/1 spaces or 1/2 spaces, so I don't think that you are supposed to decide if you are pushing before drawing the card.
 
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Fito R
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Added effects are always applied after the attack damage is dealt, and so you can wait until after drawing modifier cards and resolving damage to decide if or how to use any added effects, yes.
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Trond Roaas
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mlvanbie wrote:
It doesn't say that prior to drawing attack cards you will need to decide whether you will be pushing 0/1 spaces or 1/2 spaces, so I don't think that you are supposed to decide if you are pushing before drawing the card.

Joou wrote:
Added effects are always applied after the attack damage is dealt, and so you can wait until after drawing modifier cards and resolving damage to decide if or how to use any added effects, yes.


Incorrect - you must choose before drawing the attack modifier card.
The FAQ wrote:
An attack effect is the effect that occurs after the attack. It occurs even if the attack does no damage, including due to the NULL or Curse cards. You must chose whether you will do an effect attached to an attack before you draw a modifier card.
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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So if there are no legal ways to Push 1 an opponent and you don't verbally declare that you will push anyway, you don't get to push when Push 2 becomes possible? This is particularly troublesome when getting the initial push requires spending an element.
 
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Trond Roaas
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If you draw a push rolling modifier you will of course be able to decide whether to use it or not as you draw it. However, if the attack has a push effect on its ability line, you must in the RAW decide whether to use that push from the ability line or not before drawing a modifier.
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Fito R
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I stand corrected! That's actually really good to know.
 
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Philippe S
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DobbelB wrote:
Like everyone else said: When it says target all adjacent enemies, it's all or nothing.


This game isn't really well designed

2 minis class level 8 card is actually worse than the level 1 card it is supposed to upgrade yuk
 
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Craig S.
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NotSute wrote:
DobbelB wrote:
Like everyone else said: When it says target all adjacent enemies, it's all or nothing.


This game isn't really well designed

2 minis class level 8 card is actually worse than the level 1 card it is supposed to upgrade yuk


Are you just considering the top or bottom? What about the initiative number? There are several things to consider when choosing a card for your build. If you are looking at it as simplistically as "this card is supposed to replace that card", you are probably missing something important.
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Philippe S
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csouth154 wrote:
NotSute wrote:
DobbelB wrote:
Like everyone else said: When it says target all adjacent enemies, it's all or nothing.


This game isn't really well designed

2 minis class level 8 card is actually worse than the level 1 card it is supposed to upgrade yuk


Are you just considering the top or bottom? What about the initiative number? There are several things to consider when choosing a card for your build. If you are looking at it as simplistically as "this card is supposed to replace that card", you are probably missing something important.


Superior initiative
Superior top
Inferior bottom (push All instead of push one enemy)

Considering that the other level 8 card is useless, it's a bit disappointing to have to make compromises when reaching level 8
 
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Des T.
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NotSute wrote:

This game isn't really well designed

2 minis class level 8 card is actually worse than the level 1 card it is supposed to upgrade yuk


Why are you assuming the card has been designed as a replacement? I remember playing both of them.

How is a push all worse than a single target push?

How are you up to level eight in your (at least) second class and only now realize that making tough choices is core design intent?
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Darren Nakamura
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DeS_Tructive wrote:
How is a push all worse than a single target push?


Probably the most common thing to do with Move, Push is to move next to two or more enemies, Push one away (perhaps into a trap), then attack the other. If you have to Push all or none, then you have a choice between the Push or the attack.

Of course, like you mention, that's why it's still viable to bring the Level 1 card in addition to the Level 8 card.
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Des T.
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Dexter345 wrote:

Probably the most common thing to do with Move, Push is to move next to two or more enemies, Push one away (perhaps into a trap), then attack the other. If you have to Push all or none, then you have a choice between the Push or the attack.


Ah, okay. I was only considering it as CC in the hybrid/wonder twins build. I can see the issues if you're running superbear instead.
 
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