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Subject: Are The Dragons Balanced? rss

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Tomer Mlynarsky
Israel
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I mentioned this in the other thread, we finsihed a campaign and went to do the dragons. Doing them all in a row, one by one (we skip the co-op parts).


So we did the poison one, then did the frost one and... People decided to stop the game at this point.

The reason that 2 people (me and another one) got so much power from the first dragon rounds that the other 2 feel it's completely pointless for them to play at all.

And... I can't really blame them.



Both me and the other guy had the dragon item that give you loads of rerolls and defense and allows you to exhaust cards extra times per dragon items you have.

We also both had the dragon item from the frost dragon that gives you extra movement per dragon card.



So the other guy had the Frog Prince as a character. With both of those items, he could pretty much walk all over the map, with lots of movement and exhausting his hero card lots of times to jump around. He could easily have reached most of the dragonstone cards and exploartion tokens (which amongst others gave him a chance to unexhaust and get extra turns) and pretty much clear the map of a lot of goodies.



Me on the other hand, had a bit of luck cause I managed to grab the Miau in one of the final missions of the campaign (pre dragons) and gathered loads of rerolls. So I managed to quickly dominate the poison dragon mission which lead to the following:

I had loads of rerolls
I had a character that had the dragon reward that allowed me when inflicting wounds to hit an additional target anywhere in an outdoor space, batter up, loads of rerolls and the extra exhausts.

That means that essentially, each turn I attack 1 target, hit an additional one anywhere on the outspace of the board (which means I can always target the dragon) and still activate another character (I had something like 9 rerolls, that always give me high chance of getting a crit).

Add the tons of movement I got from items and dragon trophy and I can pretty much go all over the map.

In the first round with the frost dragon, someone blocked my path with the ice wall. I still broke it down and made it all the way to the reward in a single turn.



The thing is, I don't see how anyone could actually stop me at this point. They could all gang up on me, but if they do they don't really advance themselves. And I'm not so easy to kill.

I went over the list of items for the fire dragon and honestly didn't see anything as impressive as the stuff that the poison and frost gave me.




So I'm wondering are the dragons really balanced in terms of the rewards they give?

Is it possible that perhaps we should in the future, move the poison dragon to the end?

Or it doesn't really matter the order and the dragons are so broken in their rewards a situation like this will always happen for whomever gets the "good" stuff.
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Dimhalo
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I thought you were meant to pick ONE for an additional scenario/s at the end of a campaign? Not one after the other? At least thats how we intend to play it.

Base Game campaign complete? > pick a dragon to fight at the end
Beyond the grave campaign compelte? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
Inferno campaign complete? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
Pets campagin complete? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
Fall of Arcadia campaign compelte? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
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Chuck Hurd
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rnickster86 wrote:
I thought you were meant to pick ONE for an additional scenario/s at the end of a campaign? Not one after the other? At least thats how we intend to play it.

Base Game campaign complete? > pick a dragon to fight at the end
Beyond the grave campaign compelte? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
Inferno campaign complete? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
Pets campagin complete? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
Fall of Arcadia campaign compelte? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end

I believe that is the intent also.
 
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Ashley Kennedy
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The dragons don't seem to be designed to fit into a campaign. The best place seems to be a single dragon at the end. Even then, they aren't a climatic finish as the narrative does not build up to that fight and the rewards are pointless if it is the end of a campaign. You might be able to do one dragon before the final scenario, but then you end up with one or two superpowered heroes going into the final fight of the campaign.

As cool as the idea of the dragons are, they don't fit into the overall game of AQ.
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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rnickster86 wrote:
I thought you were meant to pick ONE for an additional scenario/s at the end of a campaign? Not one after the other? At least thats how we intend to play it.

There are rules to do all of them one by one.
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Bryan Penrose
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rnickster86 wrote:
I thought you were meant to pick ONE for an additional scenario/s at the end of a campaign? Not one after the other? At least thats how we intend to play it.

Base Game campaign complete? > pick a dragon to fight at the end
Beyond the grave campaign compelte? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
Inferno campaign complete? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
Pets campagin complete? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end
Fall of Arcadia campaign compelte? > pick another different dragon to fight at the end


But what about this in the Dragons book under Facing More Dragons?
Quote:
If you have other Dragon boxes (sold separately), you can cooose to play one Dragon encounter after the other. Once a Dragon encounter is finished (both Part I and Part II scenarios), players go through another Upgrade Phase, using the standard rules and purchasing chards from the Level 6 Upgrade desk included in the next Dragon expansion...


I think that some of the Level 6 Upgrade Cards are way better than others. The Dragon items are an auto-pick because of their stacking benefits. I haven't tried to play them back-to-back yet, but I think that you might have a good idea of setting an order for them.
 
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Trueflight Silverwing
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The thing is that the final fights are supposed to be co-op, so balancing really isn't an issue. The stuff you get is powerful, but not overly so. No more than certain hero's special abilities combined and you have access to those the entire campaign.
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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Ender02 wrote:
The thing is that the final fights are supposed to be co-op, so balancing really isn't an issue.


But what does that have to do with anything? You still, rules as written, do the PvP part as a first step.

Ender02 wrote:

The stuff you get is powerful, but not overly so. No more than certain hero's special abilities combined and you have access to those the entire campaign.

True, we have heroes that are objectively better than others. But the gap here was far bigger.

To make the point here clearer, we had another player who had both Rawr and Cassius. That's a huge deal since he can pretty much kill anything.

But that's not game breaking as people can still gang up on him and take him out or slow him down.

In this particular issue, a person could kill multiple things all across the board and walk so many squares per turn he can reach anywhere.



The question here actually is, if the rewards from the dragons are all balanced out, or is perhaps the poison dragon just stronger than everyone else that using him last maybe a better way to stretch the deal?
 
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Bryan Penrose
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I just looked through the Dragon Upgrades/Rewards, and I would probably recommend this order for the Dragons, noting the "troublesome" (imo) upgrades in parentheses:

Fire (none)
Chaos (Dragon Helm (extra rerolls), Vexia's Staff (extra dice to all magic attacks for character))
Frost (Dragon Boots (extra Movement), Frost Breath(+1 Move))
Poison (Dragon Gauntlet (extra exhaustions), Poison Breath (+2 movement), Death in a Box )

For me, the Dragon Gauntlets escalate quickly (extra exhaustion for each Dragon Card). Having those every scenario can be a huge difference. Most of the dragon cards that I didn't mention only boost a their own attack. They give you one huge attack, but once it is exhausted, it is gone. The ones I mentioned above affect every activation.

Maybe the Frost/Chaos Dragons could be switched. The movement from the Dragon Boots could be huge, but the Chaos Dragon has some great equipment, too.

I guess that another option could be to try to nerf/remove the troublesome cards, but that is a dangerous road...
 
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Tomer Mlynarsky
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LOL, that's almost the opposite of what we were doing.

We were going to do Poison -> Frost -> Fire -> Chaos
Simply because we haven't done the poison and frost.

I think Poison is indeed the most problematic, but isn't the helm with the rerolls also an issue?
After all, since only crits hurt the dragons then rerolls are the most powerful thing to have, isn't it?

There's also the issue of the items you actually get from the rewards from killing the monsters.

I think the poison one gives you the extra target anywhere on the board that's most powerful. The other is interesting (walking freely) but isn't that big of an issue.

The frost has an armor and a sword, neither one is too scary.
I don't recall what chaos and fire have.

I think Fire has a stronger Chukram?

bapenrose wrote:

I guess that another option could be to try to nerf/remove the troublesome cards, but that is a dangerous road...


If anything, I'd say maybe take the dragon cards, shuffle them and divide them to all players, then draft the rest of the cards?

That way, there's no chance for 1-2 players hording all the major ones.
 
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Bryan Penrose
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GrandMasterFox wrote:

I think Poison is indeed the most problematic, but isn't the helm with the rerolls also an issue?
After all, since only crits hurt the dragons then rerolls are the most powerful thing to have, isn't it?

Yeah, I couldn't decide between the re-rolls on the helm or the movement on the boots. That is why I said that maybe the Chaos/Frost dragons could be switched. For the PvP aspect, the boots are probably better because you can clean up the other rewards. But, overall, the Helm is probably better.

Quote:
There's also the issue of the items you actually get from the rewards from killing the monsters.

I think the poison one gives you the extra target anywhere on the board that's most powerful. The other is interesting (walking freely) but isn't that big of an issue.

You are right. The Poison Dragon has the Death in a Box. Out of the remaining, I felt that Vexia's Staff was the only other noteworthy one since it can power up all of your magic attacks. The Frost Dragon ones don't seem game-breaking (weapon can heal and armor doubles defensive crits).

Quote:
The frost has an armor and a sword, neither one is too scary.
I don't recall what chaos and fire have.

I think that remaining ones are the Crossbow, Glaive, and Bow. I think that all of those just add more dice to their own attack. The Glaive might add additional targets, so maybe in the PvP scenario could be decent.

Quote:
If anything, I'd say maybe take the dragon cards, shuffle them and divide them to all players, then draft the rest of the cards?

That way, there's no chance for 1-2 players hording all the major ones.


This is an interesting thought, because when I was looking, it seems that for the same dragon, one of the dragon items scales better than the other. So, maybe you might need to separate them into tiers to deal out? I don't know.

Is there any reason that the level 6 upgrade decks need to be kept separately? Obviously, if you combined them and dealt them all out, it might be too many options, but what if there was just a dragon item upgrade deck that was dealt out evenly and then x of the remaining items dealt out for the draft? It seems that maybe the big drawback is how random it could be.
 
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Jay Llelec

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Dragons can only be damaged by bursts on attack dice not by extra hits according to card text.
 
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