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Subject: Combat questions: What am I missing? rss

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George Kizilis
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OK had my first game with a friend. Played co-op. I have some questions regarding this game:

A)Since the Fate deck doesnt refresh, once the treasures are claimed from the dungeons there will be no more spawning. Since some of them require 4-5 Search, this makes the searching incredibly hard, as the base search of our characters was 1. Even after claiming a common action card, only managed to boost that to 2. With a max hand of 3 cards, would have to save all the hand just to search a single treasure

B) Similar problem to the above: how do you defeat the boss? I assume that it has to happen in one go like any other. With a base attack of 2, boosted to 5 with all the Fate cards (if you can save up for them) was nowhere near enough to defeat the boss. Couple that with difficulty of getting treasure in order to get items, how on earth are you supposed to do it?

Am I missing something? I played a cleric and my friend played a fighter. Even with saving cards, none of us could even touch the boss, and he has his special ability that boosted attack.
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Peter Boctor
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gkizilis wrote:
OK had my first game with a friend. Played co-op. I have some questions regarding this game:

A)Since the Fate deck doesnt refresh, once the treasures are claimed from the dungeons there will be no more spawning. Since some of them require 4-5 Search, this makes the searching incredibly hard, as the base search of our characters was 1. Even after claiming a common action card, only managed to boost that to 2. With a max hand of 3 cards, would have to save all the hand just to search a single treasure

Unfortunately neither of you played a character that excels at searching here, however the highest search that any character has naturally is 2 (it is intended to be difficult). It is worth noting a few things though:

1. There are treasures with a search value of 3.
2. Treasures are not necessary for the completion of the game, though they certainly do help.
3. Room shrines can be used to assist with searching - either by directly boosting your search skill (only useful if the treasure you want is in the search shrine, or in an adjacent room for some characters) or by refilling your hand of cards in the fate shrine (which gives you one additional card).

All of that said, yes treasure hunting is considerably more difficult than killing enemies (unless you're a Rogue).

gkizilis wrote:
B) Similar problem to the above: how do you defeat the boss? I assume that it has to happen in one go like any other. With a base attack of 2, boosted to 5 with all the Fate cards (if you can save up for them) was nowhere near enough to defeat the boss. Couple that with difficulty of getting treasure in order to get items, how on earth are you supposed to do it?

You're correct that the dungeon lord must be killed in one go just like any other enemy. It is difficult to say how you could have done it without actually knowing which characters you were using, however most characters have a way to peak their damage in some way or another (even without equipment, though I always recommend trying to get what you can).

Things to note that can assist you:

- The alter fate action can be used to use the effect stated on the fate card, some of these allow players to trade cards or take from the discard. This can be used to pickup cards with boosts that are desirable to you.
- All characters have some kind of card based on "skill" icon collection ~ for many (but not all) characters this is usually an attack card. By timing your action use so that you have as many skills available as possible, this can allow you to overcome most obstacles.
- Again, the fate shrine allows you to have an extra card in hand, which is invaluable.

Which Dungeon Lord were you facing and which characters were you using?
 
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George Kizilis
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We were playing with Arani (cleric, me), and (Venda, fighter, friend) vs Karnas.

With 3 cards in hand, and the highest damage being 2 + boost max of 3 for me vs shield of 14 from Karnas the Betrayer in (coop) I just cant see how I would ever be able to kill him. My friend playing the fighter with slightly better fighting capability would have to get very specifi Fate cards (that have both shield and attack) in order to stand a chance.

With the Fate deck not refreshing and our inability to boost search sufficiently to get the treasures, left us unable to do defeat the boss. Goodness knows what would have happened if we were playing normal. Havent played with other chars but the first play left me feeling unwilling to.
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Peter Boctor
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gkizilis wrote:
We were playing with Arani (cleric, me), and (Venda, fighter, friend) vs Karnas.

With 3 cards in hand, and the highest damage being 2 + boost max of 3 for me vs shield of 14 from Karnas the Betrayer in (coop) I just cant see how I would ever be able to kill him. My friend playing the fighter with slightly better fighting capability would have to get very specifi Fate cards (that have both shield and attack) in order to stand a chance.

With the Fate deck not refreshing and our inability to boost search sufficiently to get the treasures, left us unable to do defeat the boss. Goodness knows what would have happened if we were playing normal. Havent played with other chars but the first play left me feeling unwilling to.


Hmmm... I see, though there is one thing I can say to instantly allay some concerns. Karnas is far and above the strongest Dungeon Lord (in terms of endurance). He requires fairly specific character combinations in order to defeat him, usually equipped up to the wazoo.

I feel though that with the combination of characters you had you might not have stood a chance without a healthy amount of luck - take solace in the fact that this game is not designed to be easy or even always winnable.

I urge you to try playing it again with different characters, as you may find their play-styles might have more synergy with other characters (and you as a player). In particular I recommend Crow (high search, hand size, and occasional damage spikes) and Sigraed (good hand size and consistently high damage due to her conflagration skill). Melekai is also an excellent all rounder, with the unique ability to cause enemies to self-harm (doesn't work on DL's though).

Alternatively you may enjoy trying the competitive mode more, which is oddly more forgiving (likely because this was the games initial design format).
 
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George Kizilis
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I appreciate the reply, but that right there is extemily bad design.

If you give a player the option to pick a character (blind) without any indication of difficulty or complexity rating. When the only way to get resources is physically capped, the game is not difficult, it's impossible. Difficult, you have a chance, but right off the bat that was impossible.

If I have to pick "the right chars, fight the right boss" in order to stand a chance to complete the game, that in my book is bad design. I have seen this kind of thing before: this just says: we cannot be bothered to create a balanced game, so here you go see what you make of it. No thanks! There are tons of games out there that dont suffer these handicaps.

I was hoping I was missing something....But this sounds like another hastily out together system
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Jonathan Rowe
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You can kill Karnas quite easily. Especially with Venda.

Every character* has a Prepare card that lets them draw new Fate Cards without instructing them to discard down to their hand limit. You can use this over several turns to build up a very big hand. In fact, you don't usually need that many turns.


* Did I say EVERY character. Well, not quite:

Aseke: Draw 1 Fate card when boosting Heal
Crow, Valkea, Venda: draw 2 Fate Cards
Ardenai, Melekai: draw 1 Fate Card
Celenthia: draw [skill] Fate cards; also draw 4 Fate Cards and discard non-magic icons
Elatha: Draw 2 Fate Cards; also draw 1 Fate Card
Hareag: Draw 3 Fate Cards and discard non-magic icons
Sigraed: Gain up to 3 Fate Cards by placing wounds on cards

Arani, Durgen and Fengray are the only Heroes without the power to grow their hand to massive proportions. However, Durgen's damage potential is MASSIVE in a multiplayer game, especially once everyone has Weapons. Arani has big damage potential against Undead. Fengray has pretty big damage output if he has a lots Skill icons showing.

So Venda just needs to grow her hand until she's got 2 or 3 Shield icons (taking Karnas' defence down by 4 or 6) and 3 or 4 Combat icons to boost her (already considerable) damage.

Arani has it tougher but needs to get covered in wounds then convert them into damage with her signature power "Bane of the Dead"

So no, it's not an ill-thought-through game at all. Karnas is pretty easy to beat with a big hand (since your Shield icons deduct from his armour and you don't need to discard them, just reveal that you have them)
 
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Yves St-Denis
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gkizilis wrote:
I was hoping I was missing something....But this sounds like another hastily out together system

Same feeling here. I really wanted to like that game, but after several plays, I could only arrive at your conclusion: bad design.

If patient players need to invent alternative ways of playing the game in order to make it "playable" (see some of the posts in the forum), then there is something wrong with the original design.

Too bad!...

 
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Jonathan Rowe
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There are design problems (mostly to do with pacing and 'finite fun') but not the problems being discussed here. The Dungeon Lords are all beatable by the majority of characters without having to tweak the rules - you just play the Heroes with their 'built in' strategies.

As for the difficulty of getting Treasures, it's not _that_ hard. And anyway, you can just kill the Undead Dragons instead. They count as Treasures.

Now it is true that some Heroes are more suited to co-op than others and some more suited to certain opponents. Arani would not be my first choice for a competitive game against a non-Undead Dungeon Lord. But if I was forced to play Arani in such a situation my strategy would be to win by other means. The winner is the person with the most Shards, not the person who kills the Dungeon Lord (though that +3 Shard bonus is nice). So you clean up on other Whispers, buying General Action Cards and Rewards. The longer the others take to kill the Dungeon Lord, the higher your score.

I suppose it's conceivable you could have an array of Heroes that were underpowered against a particular Dungeon Lord (maybe, Arani, Melekai and Fengray against Rahlfors...) which would mean they would all be motivated to mop up Shards rather than go face the Big Bad. That's what I mean about the game having problems with pacing.

My problem with the game isn't that it's impossible or ill-thought-through or anything. It plainly isn't. It's more that it just takes a bit too long, it tends to drag. At the start everyone is a bit underpowered against the monsters so the early turns are full of set backs. Later on, you're overpowered against the monsters (whose numbers tend to decline anyway) so the sense of threat recedes. At the end, most people have better things to do than take on the Dungeon Lord (unless they're ahead on points and want a quick end), so there's a lack of urgency.
 
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gkizilis wrote:
We were playing with Arani (cleric, me), and (Venda, fighter, friend) vs Karnas.

With 3 cards in hand, and the highest damage being 2 + boost max of 3 for me vs shield of 14 from Karnas the Betrayer in (coop) I just cant see how I would ever be able to kill him. My friend playing the fighter with slightly better fighting capability would have to get very specifi Fate cards (that have both shield and attack) in order to stand a chance.

With the Fate deck not refreshing and our inability to boost search sufficiently to get the treasures, left us unable to do defeat the boss. Goodness knows what would have happened if we were playing normal. Havent played with other chars but the first play left me feeling unwilling to.



I think the rules only allow you to use one symbol from each card.

One way to overcome the hand limit is to use those Fate cards that let you pass cards to another player. It does not say to discard down. That way, one person could build up a bunch of shield and sword cards, then attack Karnas. In our play through, we also used Fate cards to move enemies out of our way so we could rush Karnas.
 
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Tony Johnston
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What am I missing? lol

I am looking at my character cards and the 2 we are using now are...

1. Hareag and Ardenai and it seems all of their prepare cards say to discard down to, I also looked at other characters and only like 2 allow you to grow your hand without discarding. I am unsure where the text you are referring to is?

(is it mine is kickstarter and was redone to fix it?)


deadmarlowe wrote:
You can kill Karnas quite easily. Especially with Venda.

Every character* has a Prepare card that lets them draw new Fate Cards without instructing them to discard down to their hand limit. You can use this over several turns to build up a very big hand. In fact, you don't usually need that many turns.


* Did I say EVERY character. Well, not quite:

Aseke: Draw 1 Fate card when boosting Heal
Crow, Valkea, Venda: draw 2 Fate Cards
Ardenai, Melekai: draw 1 Fate Card
Celenthia: draw [skill] Fate cards; also draw 4 Fate Cards and discard non-magic icons
Elatha: Draw 2 Fate Cards; also draw 1 Fate Card
Hareag: Draw 3 Fate Cards and discard non-magic icons
Sigraed: Gain up to 3 Fate Cards by placing wounds on cards

Arani, Durgen and Fengray are the only Heroes without the power to grow their hand to massive proportions. However, Durgen's damage potential is MASSIVE in a multiplayer game, especially once everyone has Weapons. Arani has big damage potential against Undead. Fengray has pretty big damage output if he has a lots Skill icons showing.

So Venda just needs to grow her hand until she's got 2 or 3 Shield icons (taking Karnas' defence down by 4 or 6) and 3 or 4 Combat icons to boost her (already considerable) damage.

Arani has it tougher but needs to get covered in wounds then convert them into damage with her signature power "Bane of the Dead"

So no, it's not an ill-thought-through game at all. Karnas is pretty easy to beat with a big hand (since your Shield icons deduct from his armour and you don't need to discard them, just reveal that you have them)
 
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Jonathan Rowe
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TonyHulkGamer wrote:
What am I missing? lol

I am looking at my character cards and the 2 we are using now are...

1. Hareag and Ardenai and it seems all of their prepare cards say to discard down to, I also looked at other characters and only like 2 allow you to grow your hand without discarding. I am unsure where the text you are referring to is?

(is it mine is kickstarter and was redone to fix it?)


The cards are from the Deeper Dungeons expansion. I hadn't noticed that before (since I combined the sets).
 
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