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Subject: mine as an additional move? rss

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Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
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No, the mine acts like the tunnels on the map, except only you get to use it. It will make a hex adjacent to any other hex with a tunnel - for you. So you can "use" the mine during movement as a tunnel.
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Eric Hogue
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Yajeflow wrote:
in reviewing the rules, this is not specifically addressed under 'movement' or 'mine'. here is a brief excerpt from 'mine':
"Unlike the other structures, this is an ongoing ability associated with all unit movement."


You only get the benefit of the Armory when you Trade, the Monument when you Bolster, or the Windmill when you Produce. However, the you can use the Mine even when you are not using the Move action (for example, when you use the Factory card).
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Brent Gerig
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Yajeflow wrote:
"Unlike the other structures, this is an ongoing ability associated with all unit movement."


I'd say that the question is answered right in that quote from the rules -- the benefit is associated with unit movement, it does not grant additional unit movement.

Edit: Also, the graphic for the mine does not show the usual unit movement icon, which any other movement-granting action does show.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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There is no additional movement because of the mine. It is "associated" with movement which just means it can be used any time you are moving a unit. The word "use" on the player mat is just to indicate that your faction can use that mine (and no others).

The rules for the mine are very explicit:

"You may move units to and from your Mine as if it is a tunnel"

So, as per the part I bolded, you use it as if it were a tunnel. Tunnels do not provide the ability to take an extra move, so mines do not either.

I am sure Jamey will be along soon to confirm.
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Brent Gerig
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Yajeflow wrote:
in looking at the wording as you have presented, the word 'may' could suggest that this is perhaps another benefit of the mine, but may not be the primary benefit.


"May" in game rules indicates that an ability is optional, and not required. If it said "Move units to and from your mine as if it is a tunnel," then it could instead be argued that the only way you are allowed to leave the territory with the Mine on it is via the Mine to a tunnel space. By adding "May," it becomes clear that it is something that you are permitted to do, not required to do. It by no means signifies primary vs. secondary abilities.

Also: I'm quite proud to be a rules lawyer! Word choice is important.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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Yajeflow wrote:

the real crux remains the 'ongoing bonus'.
"The benefit revealed by removing a structure from your Player Mat is an additional benefit you will gain when taking the top-row action directly above it in the future."

the benefit being revealed, in this case the 'use' of the 'mine', is "an additional benefit". it makes no distinction between the mine and the other structures. this 'additional benefit' you "...will gain when taking the top-row action directly above it in the future."

see what i mean? there is some wiggle room here.
1. build the structure
2. opens up an 'additional benefit' of the 'mine' in the future
3. next playing of 'movement' therefore creates an *additional* benefit. that word is important. it implies something not being a part of the regular movement phase.
4. you "will gain" this additional benefit when taking the action above it.
5. since there is no special designation for the mine, the wording could imply that it is to be treated the same as an additional benefit like the armory, and that the word 'use' would be the mechanism for this additional benefit that is apart from the top-row action above.

and lawyers wonder why everyone wants to drown them...


The additional benefit is moving from the space with the mine as if it were a tunnel during movement. There is no wriggle room here at all. Trying to argue that the word "use" on the mat somehow implies an entire new movement that is nowhere else mentioned in the rules is just fantasy. This is like implying that you could stab someone legally because they were wearing a "just do it" t-shirt.

This isn't rules lawyering, that would imply some actual basis for the argument, this is just rules fantasy
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Greg Darcy
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
Yajeflow wrote:

the real crux remains the 'ongoing bonus'.
"The benefit revealed by removing a structure from your Player Mat is an additional benefit you will gain when taking the top-row action directly above it in the future."

the benefit being revealed, in this case the 'use' of the 'mine', is "an additional benefit". it makes no distinction between the mine and the other structures. this 'additional benefit' you "...will gain when taking the top-row action directly above it in the future."

see what i mean? there is some wiggle room here.
1. build the structure
2. opens up an 'additional benefit' of the 'mine' in the future
3. next playing of 'movement' therefore creates an *additional* benefit. that word is important. it implies something not being a part of the regular movement phase.
4. you "will gain" this additional benefit when taking the action above it.
5. since there is no special designation for the mine, the wording could imply that it is to be treated the same as an additional benefit like the armory, and that the word 'use' would be the mechanism for this additional benefit that is apart from the top-row action above.

and lawyers wonder why everyone wants to drown them...


The additional benefit is moving from the space with the mine as if it were a tunnel during movement. There is no wriggle room here at all. Trying to argue that the word "use" on the mat somehow implies an entire new movement that is nowhere else mentioned in the rules is just fantasy. This is like implying that you could stab someone legally because they were wearing a "just do it" t-shirt.

This isn't rules lawyering, that would imply some actual basis for the argument, this is just rules fantasy


You mean I bought that T-shirt for nothing??? I want my money back! devil
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Brent Gerig
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GregDarcy wrote:
You mean I bought that T-shirt for nothing??? I want my money back! devil

Wait, you wanted to get stabbed? I'm sure you could just nicely ask someone. Or... ohhhh, you got it as a "gift" for someone, didn't you? How devious.
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
Yajeflow wrote:

the real crux remains the 'ongoing bonus'.
"The benefit revealed by removing a structure from your Player Mat is an additional benefit you will gain when taking the top-row action directly above it in the future."

the benefit being revealed, in this case the 'use' of the 'mine', is "an additional benefit". it makes no distinction between the mine and the other structures. this 'additional benefit' you "...will gain when taking the top-row action directly above it in the future."

see what i mean? there is some wiggle room here.
1. build the structure
2. opens up an 'additional benefit' of the 'mine' in the future
3. next playing of 'movement' therefore creates an *additional* benefit. that word is important. it implies something not being a part of the regular movement phase.
4. you "will gain" this additional benefit when taking the action above it.
5. since there is no special designation for the mine, the wording could imply that it is to be treated the same as an additional benefit like the armory, and that the word 'use' would be the mechanism for this additional benefit that is apart from the top-row action above.

and lawyers wonder why everyone wants to drown them...


The additional benefit is moving from the space with the mine as if it were a tunnel during movement. There is no wriggle room here at all. Trying to argue that the word "use" on the mat somehow implies an entire new movement that is nowhere else mentioned in the rules is just fantasy. This is like implying that you could stab someone legally because they were wearing a "just do it" t-shirt.

This isn't rules lawyering, that would imply some actual basis for the argument, this is just rules fantasy

It's lawyering all right, but you're not the one trying to do it Rev.
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Brent Gerig
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Sphere wrote:

Ironically enough, given our discussion in this thread regarding the importance of words, I initially misread your name as "Was George Orwell an Optometrist?" and was incredibly confused.
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flaquito wrote:
Sphere wrote:

Ironically enough, given our discussion in this thread regarding the importance of words, I initially misread your name as "Was George Orwell an Optometrist?" and was incredibly confused.

You have to squint to read it.
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Anthony Mai
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Could you fix your broken quote boxes? Hard to tell who is who.

As the reverend noted, what bothers me from your friend's argument is that USE-ing the mine conveys a movement. The specific icon of movement is the stick figure with MOVE text adjacent. The specific icon of using the mine is the mine pointing to a tunnel with the USE adjacent to it. Since MOVE associates with the stick figure, and USE associates with activating the tunnel, you MOVE units, then, as you see fit, USE the mine to go to an adjacent tunnel.

Far as I can tell the tunnel/mine icon itself innately does not convey a stick figure icon. The "optional use of the mine to move to/from a mine" doesn't convey movement, if your friend is so insistent on separating primary and secondary benefit. Great you have access to the other tunnels but no movement to speak of as that step has been completed. I'm not sure how you could USE the mine without actually using it.
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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Yajeflow wrote:
"you are being pedantic. give it a rest."


Everyone here is saying that, believe me. I quit. This isn't worth the sanity loss.

Unsubscribed.
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Michael
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Yajeflow wrote:
i agree with everyone here on this. really. i am merely sticking up for my friend's contention. i would really like someone of some scythe scholarship to say, "jason - you are being pedantic. give it a rest. everyone else on the planet understands what the intent of the mine is. you owe jay at least two doughnuts for making him present this, at risk of personal derision, in a public forum. shame on you."


I vote for donuts for everyone!
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Brent Gerig
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Delwarris wrote:
Could you fix your broken quote boxes? Hard to tell who is who.


You can do this by changing the second q="reverendunclebastard" to /q

(I can't figure out how to actually type the [] without it turning it into a quote. )
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Eric Hogue
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Yajeflow wrote:
nope. that would be the primary benefit, that being able to 'use' it as a tunnel. this is for when you use the movement option, and the potential here as an *additional* benefit.

nope. from the rules themselves:
"The benefit revealed by removing a structure from your Player Mat is an additional benefit you will gain when taking the top-row action directly above it in the future."


The additional benefit of the Mine is that you can use it as a tunnel when you are not taking the Move action, that is, when you are moving based on a Factory card.
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Greg Darcy
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flaquito wrote:
Delwarris wrote:
Could you fix your broken quote boxes? Hard to tell who is who.


You can do this by changing the second q="reverendunclebastard" to /q

(I can't figure out how to actually type the [] without it turning it into a quote. )

Add a space inside the brackets [ q] Thus [ /q]
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Brent Gerig
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GregDarcy wrote:

Add a space inside the brackets [ q] Thus [ /q]

Ah, thanks!
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