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Subject: Charybdis's Abyssal Maw, is it a range +1 attack? rss

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Mike Beiter
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ABYSSAL MAW reads:

Make a 6 dice area attack on "all adjacent areas."

So my question is, does that wording circumvent abilities that specifically effect range +X attacks?

Example, Hecates BLACK MOON reads, all attacks against her are at -1 Range.
And if the attacks range is insufficient, it can't be made.

So if Charybdis uses her abyssal maw on Hecates adjacent area, it is or is not inhibited by her black moon power?
It doesnt say that Charybdis is making a range +1 attack, just that the areas adjacent to her get attacked.

Is this wording intentional?

Thoughts?

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Jorge Castro
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
ABYSSAL MAW reads:

Make a 6 dice area attack on "all adjacent areas."

So my question is, does that wording circumvent abilities that specifically effect range +X attacks?

Example, Hecates BLACK MOON reads, all attacks against her are at -1 Range.
And if the attacks range is insufficient, it can't be made.

So if Charybdis uses her abyssal maw on Hecates adjacent area, it is or is not inhibited by her black moon power?
It doesnt say that Charybdis is making a range +1 attack, just that the areas adjacent to her get attacked.

Is this wording intentional?

Thoughts?



Is ABYSSAL MAW a "range" attack to begin with? Sorry I don't have my copy yet and I don't trust the information on old versions of the cards.
 
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Dan
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This is a confusing conflict between the two Powers. It is my understanding that an adjacent attack is inherently an attack at +1 range, as it is always 1 space away.

According to “area attack” rules, the attack does not target the area itself, but actually targets each specific target within the targeted area. So in this case Hecate is still being targeted from a range of +1, which would lead me to believe that her power would negate the range, when specifically rolling against her, however anything else within her area would be targeted as normal, by Charybdis’ area attack.

That’s my understanding and interpretation of the rules, after pouring through the book multiple times, there is no clearly defined interaction between adjacent spaces and range consideration. However someone else may have an answer from The dev in some FAQ.

How did you interpret it?
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Mike Beiter
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To address both of the above questions.

Abyssal maw is worded as noted. It does not specifically designate as a +1 attack.

But going off of the second reply, the rules seem to imply it is self evident that it is a ranged.
Its just a shame they are not concistant in the wording used in abilities.

I wanted to play it as Hecate would thwart the attack as it was "ranged".
But my players felt that since it was not written as a ranged attack, that it supperceeded the ability.

They conceptualized that its one thing for darkness to obscure a person trying to hit you with an arrow, but it's a different thing when a whirlpool floods an entire zone.

So conceptually accurate or not, my players outnumbered me and said that Abyssal Maw was a special kind of non ranged attack based on the wording.
So the question remains, was this wording intentional or just another of the many lost in translation errors this game has.

Giving my 2 sense, their way of handling attacks as bei g ranged 0, ranged +1 is very confusing.
I wish they would have just stuck with the tried tested and true melee vs ranged attack system that works so well across countless games. Sorry, got a little ranty there...

 
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Dutchman
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There is no sign for ranged Attack or the wording ranged Attack.
It is no ranged Attack.
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Emil Vincent Alonzo
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
To address both of the above questions.

Abyssal maw is worded as noted. It does not specifically designate as a +1 attack.

But going off of the second reply, the rules seem to imply it is self evident that it is a ranged.
Its just a shame they are not concistant in the wording used in abilities.

I wanted to play it as Hecate would thwart the attack as it was "ranged".
But my players felt that since it was not written as a ranged attack, that it supperceeded the ability.

They conceptualized that its one thing for darkness to obscure a person trying to hit you with an arrow, but it's a different thing when a whirlpool floods an entire zone.

So conceptually accurate or not, my players outnumbered me and said that Abyssal Maw was a special kind of non ranged attack based on the wording.
So the question remains, was this wording intentional or just another of the many lost in translation errors this game has.

Giving my 2 sense, their way of handling attacks as bei g ranged 0, ranged +1 is very confusing.
I wish they would have just stuck with the tried tested and true melee vs ranged attack system that works so well across countless games. Sorry, got a little ranty there...



To preface, I agree that the wording on cards are inconsistent so it makes these kinds of situations rough...

But just going off of the text you've provided, I would have to go with what the other players in your group decided. Since Abyssal Maw doesn't have a printed range, then hes making an attack in the adjacent spaces and not a ranged 1 attack.

Again, I totally get what you're saying though about terms not being consistent on the cards, but yeh as written I would go with that ruling.

Even in a "thematic" sense I agree with what you're saying. Black Moon reduces visibility so makes ranged attacks harder, but abyssal maw I would take it as Charybdis opening his mouth wider to hit everything around him.

I dont have my rulebook handy on me, but the only other part I would want to check is the Area Attack section again to see if there's anything about range in there, but otherwise it doesn't sound like Hecate could avoid it.
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Max Jansson
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It is not a ranged attack look at Pan's Power for reference of a Power affecting a specific area without being defined as ranged.
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Mike Beiter
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Evil_X wrote:
It is not a ranged attack look at Pan's Power for reference of a Power affecting a specific area without being defined as ranged.


That is true, Panic or whatever it is called just targets an area anywhere. So it has no range restrictions.

However Charybdis and her maw have a localized effect that more closely resembles a range 1 attack.

So are these two handled the same way?
Something to ponder...
 
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Max Jansson
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
Evil_X wrote:
It is not a ranged attack look at Pan's Power for reference of a Power affecting a specific area without being defined as ranged.


That is true, Panic or whatever it is called just targets an area anywhere. So it has no range restrictions.

However Charybdis and her maw have a localized effect that more closely resembles a range 1 attack.

So are these two handled the same way?
Something to ponder...


Strictly by the rules they are, since there is nothing affecting the range of Charybdis Power it just is and where it is is in surroundings.
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Dan
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Going to have to maintain that this would indeed be a range +1 attack. The text says makes an area attack against all adjacent spaces.


Let’s think about the redundancy of writing it out;

This is essentially the same as stating it makes an area attack at range +1 on all adjacent spaces... if an attack is made against an adjacent space it is inherently a attack made at Range +1 so why add the additional redundant text.

Now I get that this is confusing, and the text would serve a purpose for us, however we need to remember this game was translated to English, and a non-English speaker isn’t going to add words for what they may perceive to be assumed based on adjacent.

Pans Panic ability specifically states that you choose a area anywhere on the board and all characters within that area suffer an attack. It is a specific range defined as infinite in this ability since you are choosing ANY area to initiate the attack.

Any = Infinite Range, since it can be any area
adjacent = Range +1 since it’s the area directly next to you.

As to thematics, how is Charyb going to find her if she is shrouded in darkness in order to attempt to swallow her? When you bring a piece of pizza up to your face do you blindly chomp at the air until you find the pizza, or do you find the pizza slice first and bring your mouth to its target?

edits: lotta typos posting this with my iPhone.
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Emil Vincent Alonzo
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Mordliss wrote:
Going to have to maintain that this would indeed be a range +1 attack. The text says makes an area attack against all adjacent spaces.


Let’s think about the redundancy of writing it out;

This is essentially the same as stating it makes an area attack at range +1 on all adjacent spaces... if an attack is made against an adjacent space it is inherently a attack made at Range +1 so why add the additional redundant text.

Now I get that this is confusing, and the text would serve a purpose for us, however we need to remember this game was translated to English, and a non-English speaker isn’t going to add words for what they may perceive to be assumed based on adjacent.

Pans Panic ability specifically states that you choose a area anywhere on the board and all characters within that area suffer an attack. It is a specific range defined as infinite in this ability since you are choosing ANY area to initiate the attack.

Any = Infinite Range, since it can be any area
adjacent = Range +1 since it’s the area directly next to you.

As to thematics, how is Charyb going to find her if she is shrouded in darkness in order to attempt to swallow her? When you bring a piece of pizza up to your face do you blindly chomp at the air until you find the pizza, or do you find the pizza slice first and bring your mouth to its target?

edits: lotta typos posting this with my iPhone.


And that's fine for you to interpret it that way, but that's part of the frustration that @MajaiofDreams and the rest of us have... its not cut and dry either way. And apparent to this thread there are people who interpret it as one way or the other (which is also why we are here discussing it).

For more insight as to why I interpret this as not being a range 1 attack:

Adjacent Area is defined in the back of the rule book as "Two areas are adjacent when they share a common border". They could have worded it to be "range 1" or added that clarification here.

Additionally, there are other powers that would do the same thing as Abyssal Maw and are worded with range.

For instance Ladon has a "Ladon's 100 Heads" attack that reads:
"Make a 5 dice attack on all enemy units in range. Targets cannot retaliate".

In the case of Ladon, Hecate's Black Moon would for sure cancel the attack since the power reference range and his range (when full life at least) is 1.

They could have just written Abyssal Maw then as "Make a 6 dice attack attack on all enemy units in range." or "Make a 6 dice area attack on all areas within range", etc.


And in regards to "thematics" and your pizza analogy. That's exactly what hes doing. Charybdis is basically a gigantic hole in the ocean (well floor in this game). Instead of trying to find and attack one person, its basically just opening wider and hitting everyone in adjacent areas, he doesnt need to find that pizza specifically to target it, it just falls in with everything else.


Again, Im not saying the other interpretation is absolutely wrong, but its not 100% clear (or else it wouldnt even be debated), and with the way things are written I read it as "adjacent attacks" are not "range 1" attacks.
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Mike Beiter
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Both good points.
 
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D Conklin
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Added:

Charybdis
For the purposes of powers affecting range (eg, Hecate's Black Moon), is Abyssal Maw considered to be a range +1 attack?
Seems not since there is no mention of range, but need official ruling.
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Raph Moimoi
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dc0nklin wrote:
Added:

Charybdis
For the purposes of powers affecting range (eg, Hecate's Black Moon), is Abyssal Maw considered to be a range +1 attack?
Seems not since there is no mention of range, but need official ruling.


As a side note you can also add : in french Charibdys dashboard has the talent Huge, but the english one doesn't. Which the right one ?
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Emil Vincent Alonzo
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Pikaraph wrote:
dc0nklin wrote:
Added:

Charybdis
For the purposes of powers affecting range (eg, Hecate's Black Moon), is Abyssal Maw considered to be a range +1 attack?
Seems not since there is no mention of range, but need official ruling.


As a side note you can also add : in french Charibdys dashboard has the talent Huge, but the english one doesn't. Which the right one ?


Oh I thought that was a typo. The rules go on to include it in the expansion and hes the only unit with it, so I think it was just accidentally missed when they printed the English side. We just play that its printed. I guess it wouldnt hurt to get it verified though.
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Mike Beiter
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What does "huge" mean?
 
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D Conklin
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
What does "huge" mean?


New talent written up in Poseidon rules:
Quote:

This unit can only enter areas with a capacity of 3 or greater.

This unit's area is always considered to be full, regardless of its capacity.

This unit ignores any talents or powers of other units that would move it into a new area.


I will ask the question about the card missing Huge in the FAQ thread.
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Mike Beiter
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Wow, so lets just say we played Charybdis VERY wrong the other night!
 
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Mike Beiter
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Followup on Charybdis/huge units.

Lets say thers a 3+ capacity area with 2 units. Can Charybdis take the run action to enter it?

Nothing says they cant. It seems like the only way outside of Deploy to get Charybdis in a friendly unit area.
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Dominick Piantoni
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I would say Abyssal Maw should overcome black moon. You're not increasing Charybdis' range or making a range 1 attack by the wording. You're making a huge area attack on multiple adjacent areas.
Thematically if black moon is like putting a black shroud over everyone for defense, a giant mouth opening will still eat what it can't see if something is still in range of the action, like previously said.
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Dominick Piantoni
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
Followup on Charybdis/huge units.

Lets say thers a 3+ capacity area with 2 units. Can Charybdis take the run action to enter it?

Nothing says they cant. It seems like the only way outside of Deploy to get Charybdis in a friendly unit area.


Charybdis has zero movement and can't run or walk. Groundswell is how she moves and destroys all 3D terrain and moves every unit and omphalos into an adjacent area and suffer a 5 dice attack.
So you would cause 5 dice attacks to friendly units if you try to move into their area.
Huge makes it so no power and talent moves them and their area is always considered full
 
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Mike Beiter
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MonkeyD609 wrote:
MajaiofDreams wrote:
Followup on Charybdis/huge units.

Lets say thers a 3+ capacity area with 2 units. Can Charybdis take the run action to enter it?

Nothing says they cant. It seems like the only way outside of Deploy to get Charybdis in a friendly unit area.


Charybdis has zero movement and can't run or walk. Groundswell is how she moves and destroys all 3D terrain and moves every unit and omphalos into an adjacent area and suffer a 5 dice attack.
So you would cause 5 dice attacks to friendly units if you try to move into their area.
Huge makes it so no power and talent moves them and their area is always considered full


What makes you say she can't run?
True her movement is 0 so walking wont work.
But 0 movement units can take a run action to move 1 space.
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Dominick Piantoni
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Why would you waste a complex action to run one space when you can move two spaces and damage everything in the area and push enemies.
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MonkeyD609 wrote:
Why would you waste a complex action to run one space when you can move two spaces and damage everything in the area and push enemies.


That's not the point. The point is that the wording/intent is ambiguous.
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Mike Beiter
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MonkeyD609 wrote:
Why would you waste a complex action to run one space when you can move two spaces and damage everything in the area and push enemies.


When you want to move Charybdis in to protect your god for example.

In our game, Aphrodite had her 3rd omphalos which granted her friendly units in her area guard due to ger divinity card.
So Charybdis with her high defense and life pool was amazing in this position.

But to circle back to the point.
Regardless of if it is or is not a tactically sound move, the point is that any unit can choose to run even if it has 0 movement.

 
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