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Twilight Imperium (Fourth Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Legacy Variants? rss

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Adam Wells
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My friends and I have played... probably an unhealthy amount of Twilight Imperium over the last two weeks (We're at like... eight games) and we're starting to wonder if there's anything out there for 4th or 3rd edition that enabled legacy or campaign style play.
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Sander Stroom
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TI3 had the Lazax scenario.

I do not see how a campaign or legacy version would make it better, just longer.
 
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Patrick G.
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wells101 wrote:
My friends and I have played... probably an unhealthy amount of Twilight Imperium over the last two weeks (We're at like... eight games) and we're starting to wonder if there's anything out there for 4th or 3rd edition that enabled legacy or campaign style play.

Why would you want to destroy your game? Just look for campaign possibilities.
 
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Ben Rubinstein

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... eight games in two weeks? HOW?
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Jeff Wagner
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epilepticemu wrote:
... eight games in two weeks? HOW?


3 player? 4 player? How many players? At any count that is impressive and would be so cool!!
 
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Ike Evans
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It would not surprise me if FFG has a legacy element planned as an expansion for those of us who are TI snobs.
 
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Patrick G.
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ikesteroma wrote:
It would not surprise me if FFG has a legacy element planned as an expansion for those of us who are TI snobs.

It would surprise me.

They have never previously embraced the "legacy" concept.

Great with campaigns with their games though. No idea how you would do it with TI but I look forward to trying it(and finding people who would play that often.)
 
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Nick Naz
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I would love something like mechs vs minions with minimal story about building a new empire but have pre-set maps growing bigger each time and encountering new races with a card deck AI system for picking strategy cards, taking tactical actions, and voting.

Tactical action cards would say for example "take highest value planet", "attack player etc". Maybe just have a random player play as that race for an action. Not really sure on specifics, but I would be more than willing to put in hundreds of hours of playtesting to make it happen.

We definitely need a nekro virus scenario in there somewhere, or maybe we initially encounter the l1z1x, after freeing Muatt from tyrannical Jol-nar rule, and they appear aggressive so we fight them, only to realize next scenario they were the good guys all along and weve just unleashed the Nekro virus.

FFG are you writing this down?
 
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Julian Sanchez
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ikesteroma wrote:
It would not surprise me if FFG has a legacy element planned as an expansion for those of us who are TI snobs.


I mean, I like this idea in the abstract, but I have trouble imagining a legacy campaign being broadly marketable enough to justify an official commercial release. A game like Pandemic works nicely in legacy format because, well, you can play it in a couple hours... which means you can realistically hope to get a group of employed adults together once a week or a couple times a month, which means the overarching narrative retains some momentum. Even allowing for retirees and college students, the proportion of the TI player base that can get the same group together that often (never mind eight times in two weeks! are you all polar research scientists?) has to be pretty small. And I don’t know if Legacy works as well for groups that have trouble scheduling games more often than once a month or so. It’s like putting a novel down for a couple months—-usually I realize I’ve lost track of enough that I’m better off just starting it over when I finally get back to it.

That said... full day games do have a way of lingering in memory, so maybe it would work out after all. Not necessarily as a commercial release, but narratively, if the frighteningly dedicated player community decided it was worth putting some work into it. There are a zillion preset maps already out there, and a lot of interesting house rule variants. You could stitch those existing ideas together in some kind of branching frame narrative, where the outcome of the first (which faction wins, of course, but maybe some other more subtle features — how many combats? What point spread?) determines a text outcome, each of which is associated with a preset map and rule modification for the next game. (Though you’d have to limit the number of outcomes and make some of the branches re-converge to avoid combinatorial explosion.)

Some aspects of the game seem a little hard to shoehorn into a Legacy narrative — why are people rediscovering all the same techs again? You could either make tech substantially more expensive, so players can carry over some or all acquire techs between games without it getting ridiculous, or just use some kind of time travel/chronal loop story as the frame narrative. (Maybe with a buffed version of the Ghosts of Creuss as the big bad at the end.)

So, yeah, not holding my breath for FFG to do it, but I’d love to see someone take a stab, though the time required for any kind of iterated design loop that actually involves playtesting the campaign makes me shudder a bit.
 
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Jacovis
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What the hell is it with people and trying to Legacy-ize everything instead of creating new Legwcy games with their own game built around the idea? It's getting really fricking exhausting to see every game come out and a few weeks later inevitably someone starts a thread and asks "So, should there be a Legacy version of this or what?!"

Christ in a Cracker Barrel it's fucking annoying to see these pop up in every game's forums. Go make a unique, new Legacy game and leave our regular games the hell alone.

See Gloomhaven for help, I suppose.
 
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Michael Schneider
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You could rip up action cards that you've played... whistle
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Nick Naz
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Jacovis wrote:
What the hell is it with people and trying to Legacy-ize everything instead of creating new Legwcy games with their own game built around the idea? It's getting really fricking exhausting to see every game come out and a few weeks later inevitably someone starts a thread and asks "So, should there be a Legacy version of this or what?!"

Christ in a Cracker Barrel it's fucking annoying to see these pop up in every game's forums. Go make a unique, new Legacy game and leave our regular games the hell alone.

See Gloomhaven for help, I suppose.


It makes it so easy to form a gaming group that meets once a week to "complete" a legacy game. It is much harder to convince people to come over and play TI4 once a week. A lot of people think it will get repetitive because "you are playing the same thing over and over".
 
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Patrick G.
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Jacovis wrote:
What the hell is it with people and trying to Legacy-ize everything instead of creating new Legwcy games with their own game built around the idea? It's getting really fricking exhausting to see every game come out and a few weeks later inevitably someone starts a thread and asks "So, should there be a Legacy version of this or what?!"

Christ in a Cracker Barrel it's fucking annoying to see these pop up in every game's forums. Go make a unique, new Legacy game and leave our regular games the hell alone.

See Gloomhaven for help, I suppose.

That's how I always feel (practically word for word.. although I may tend to add a bit more profanity) about full co-op versions of games. haha.
 
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Scott Lewis
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CarlosSpicyweener wrote:
You could rip up action cards that you've played... whistle

Or just the ones that get Sabotaged...
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Adam Wells
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the four of us have been getting together at about 6pm. None of us have kids/wives that will stop us from playing until 1 am several nights a week.

We do use a pair of variant rules to help us along:

Motion to Close:
A player with 6 victory points, 3 more than any other player, and control of Mecatol Wrex may take a component action to Motion to Close. A player vote occurs (no abilities or cards may be played and no influence is spent) for or against the player. If the 'for' votes win, the player is crowned emperor and gains 4 victory points.

Time Waits for No Empire:
Once a player's turn has lasted more than 5 minutes without action, any other player may motion to force an action. A player vote occurs (no abilities or cards may be played and no influence is spent) for or against the player. If 'against' wins, the player must take a strategy action available to him if able, or pass.
 
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Adam Wells
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The reason I ask specifically about Twilight Imperium is that its got the potential for it. Now, granted I'm not looking for something like Risk: Legacy (that was lightning in a bottle), we'd just like to see some continuity between the games.

Though after some discussion with my group, we're more actively seeking a way to balance out things so we don't always have the same two players winning, and legacy-like elements were our first solution to that.
 
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Julian Sanchez
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Jacovis wrote:
What the hell is it with people and trying to Legacy-ize everything instead of creating new Legwcy games with their own game built around the idea? It's getting really fricking exhausting to see every game come out and a few weeks later inevitably someone starts a thread and asks "So, should there be a Legacy version of this or what?!"

Christ in a Cracker Barrel it's fucking annoying to see these pop up in every game's forums. Go make a unique, new Legacy game and leave our regular games the hell alone.

See Gloomhaven for help, I suppose.


I can’t understand why anyone thinks it’s worth getting annoyed (or “exhausted”) over other people wanting to play in a way that doen’t appeal to them. There’s a whole “variants” forum full of people talking about their assorted house rules and alternative ways to play. If it isn’t for you, well, don’t play that way. And if even the discussion rubs you the wrong way... why read the thread at all?

That said, one reason people gravitate toward Legacy-izing existing games has to do with the overhead of playtesting. Good game design usually isn’t a matter of something springing fully formed, like Athena from the head of Zeus, and getting tweaked slightly based on feedback. Rather, designers put together a prototype that enables play with the core mechanics, test, revise, test, revise, etc through as many iterations as deadlines and budget allow, adding (or stripping away) complexity with each iteration. Playtesting a Legacy game, obviously, takes a good deal longer, and generally you want to make sure the core game loop is satisfying on its own before adding the Legacy elements. So it’s a lot easier to start with something that’s already proven that it works at the level of individual games before adding the legacy aspect, especially if we’re envisioning a game that requires many hours for each playthrough.

Also, obviously, if we’re talking about a fan project, making a few extra cards and rule changes for an existing game is a lot more feasible than manufacturing a new game from scratch. With TI, for instance, legacy narrative could be added just by printing up a set of custom public/secret objective cards for each game in a campaign, and making note of any features or rule changes that carry over from one game to the next.

 
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Nick Naz
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Anyone thought about just moving the "winning" players home world to the center for the next game you play? Then move Mecatol Rex to where the old players home system was? Definitely would be some asymmetric game play going on there... Could lead to some interesting of politics, of trying to get your neighbor to win, if you don't think you can win the game.
 
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PK Levine
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wells101 wrote:
My friends and I have played... probably an unhealthy amount of Twilight Imperium over the last two weeks (We're at like... eight games) and we're starting to wonder if there's anything out there for 4th or 3rd edition that enabled legacy or campaign style play.

No, but if you start a thread in the Variants forum, perhaps some people will help you come up with one.
 
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