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Subject: Hooligans Brainstorming rss

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Andy Szymas
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Hooligans seem like the most contentious game design element - just a random chance you lose coins/vp. We were wondering about brainstorming some variants in game group last night. What do you think of these ideas / are there pitfalls we're missing?

Variant 1) Instead of a hooligan randomly drawn, every fifth patron is automatically a hooligan.
cons) not sure how it would interact with the hooligan upgrades/specialists

Variant 2) Extra security points can be used to kick out hooligans (throw them back in the bag and redraw.
cons) makes getting security better, makes hooligan upgrades/specialists relatively (minorly) worse
thoughts) Would it make sense that this security point is spent permanently (go down on the track)?
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Matt Smith
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Hooligans provide a necessary uncertainty in knowing how many VP each player will score from visitors each round. The uncertainty is needed to prevent players with food vendors from knowing exactly how many visitors to get $ from instead of VP to manipulate Turn Order.

For example, I'm player 1 in turn order and you're player 2. I have 2 less VP than you. I have a food vendor with 3 visitors on it. You have no food vendors. I have to pull from the bag and fill my park before you do. Without the possibility of hooligans, I could calculate exactly how many VP you will score based on your excitement and security/threat levels, and I could maximize the $ from my food vendor while staying just behind your score and ahead of you in turn order.

Hooligans can also provide an unexpected turn order boon, by giving you less VP for a round and bumping you up in the turn order.

So, hooligans aren't entirely without merit.
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Jakub Suszek
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Are hooligans that big of a problem for you?

And by a "big problem" I mean: does drawing hooligans costs you losing victory often (in majority of games)? How many victories you had cause your opponent got too many of them?

Despite playing couple of times so far we hadn't had any trouble with either dealing with hooligans (lot of specialists prevent this and double vp lab upgrade also kinda counters it)or even drawing more than 2 of them happened once (and still it was during 14 visitor rounds).


Variant 1 doesn't make any sense to me. Whats the point of hooligans at all if you know when and how many will come? Doesn't even make fabular sense (yeah I know it's an euro game )
Variant 2 basically means you don't need to put hooligans to the bag at all if u can prevent showing them every time.
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Rob Pearson
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Agreed - hooligans have mattered very little in any game I have played so far. If people are so worried about them then invest in the things that help you manage them.
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Matt Smith
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The most hooligans I've seen drawn by a single player in one round is 5 out of 19 visitors. It was the last round of a 35-point loss, so the hooligans didn't come close to affecting the outcome.
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Kevin Marema
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In my plays, VIPs have played a MUCH larger role in shaping the game than hooligans. Almost to the point where I kind of want to take that card out of the Plot Twist deck.

I really don't mind the hooligans at all and find them to be pretty fun.
 
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Andy Szymas
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mvettemagred wrote:
Hooligans provide a necessary uncertainty in knowing how many VP each player will score from visitors each round. The uncertainty is needed to prevent players with food vendors from knowing exactly how many visitors to get $ from instead of VP to manipulate Turn Order.

For example, I'm player 1 in turn order and you're player 2. I have 2 less VP than you. I have a food vendor with 3 visitors on it. You have no food vendors. I have to pull from the bag and fill my park before you do. Without the possibility of hooligans, I could calculate exactly how many VP you will score based on your excitement and security/threat levels, and I could maximize the $ from my food vendor while staying just behind your score and ahead of you in turn order.

Hooligans can also provide an unexpected turn order boon, by giving you less VP for a round and bumping you up in the turn order.

So, hooligans aren't entirely without merit.


This is a fantastic point I hadn't considered. I hadn't realized you do your park phase in turn order (we were just doing it all together).

I personally don't mind hooligans, but I've now had two players mention they disliked the randomness of them. I know there are specialists/upgrades that counter them.

And to say: I have seen hooligans effect a final score placement. In the four player game we played last night, the fourth player was the only one who didn't get a hooligan upgrade/specialist (they were bought before he had the opportunity). He was the only one effected by hooligans and ended up losing by only a handful of points.
 
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