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Subject: LOG YOUR WINNING FACTION HERE rss

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Ryan Keane
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I thought it would be great to have a single thread to collect players' game results.

I welcome you to post your game plays here. If you can, please include the following information:

Scenario: Barbarian Conspiracy (BC), Petty Tyrants (PT), The Harder They Fall (HTF), or De Excidio Britanniae (DEB).

Mode: 4 players, 3p with barbarian team, 2p with teams, multiplayer solitaire, solo+3 bots, 2p+2bots, 3p+1bot...

Bots: if bots used, note if you used introductory, easy, or difficult. Otherwise, standard bots will be assumed.

End: Did the game end on 1st, 2nd..., or final Epoch?

Imperium: What was the Imperium status at game end?

Scores: victory margins for each faction. It helps to be clear exactly which victory condition formula is being use to calculate your margins, particularly for non-final epoch.

Any other notes of interest from the game you want to mention, but no need to write a full session report.

Thanks!
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Ryan Keane
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To start off the list, here's my latest game (3rd). Still learning.

The Harder They Fall
multiplayer solo - no bots
Saxons win on 2nd Epoch (of 4)

Met victory check:
Saxons: 18 (38 renown, 6 settlements; only 6 population)
Civitates: 2 (29 pop, Autonomy - Civilian Dominance)

Did not meet victory check:
Scotti: 27 renown, 3 settlements
Dux: 40 P+P

Dux were really hurting for resources and cut roads, definitely should have played Pivotal Event when they had the chance rather than just repeatedly smashing reachable Scotti for Prestige, although at the time it seemed like it would have guaranteed the win to Civitates.

Edit: updated and defined how scores were calculated based on Marc & Oerjan's discussion
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Ben McClellan
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Scenario:Petty Tyrants

Mode: Multiplayer solitaire

Bots: Used Standard bots for guidance, but overrode them at times.

End: Final epoch

Score:

Dux: -1
Saxons: -4
Civitates: -4
Scotti: -13

I clearly did not pay enough attention to the Scotti faction. I was mostly consumed by the Saxon/Civitates battles in the southeast, and neglected the Scotti too much. The Dux capitalized on those two being distracted just enough to pull out a victory.

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Scott Mansfield
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Scenario: Barbarian Conspiracy

Mode: Multiplayer solitaire

Bots: Not used

End: Final epoch (final card even!)

Score:

Scotti: 9
Dux: 0
Saxons: 0
Civitates: -9

Notes: 3rd game overall, 2nd solo. I must say the Civ's are the hardest for me to understand thus far. The two barbarians are tough to land and stabilize, but their sequence of play doesn't change too much through the conflict, the Scotti with their singular VC even more so. But those Civs, trying to manage a collapsing way of life, fearful perhaps of the region splintering to the point they piss of their ancient Roman allies...so tough.

On another note, I had the Saxons land at Cornwall (sorry for the modern inclusion) even though their beloved Fens were halfway across the country. But once there, they were able to penetrate east using a series of deep raids, secure more settlements, ignore the coastal forts and were able to cut the road network in half.
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Ryan Keane wrote:
To start off the list, here's my latest game (3rd). Still learning.

The Harder They Fall
multiplayer solo - no bots
Saxons win on 2nd Epoch (of 4)

Saxons: 8
Civitates: 2 (Autonomy - Civilian Dominance)
Scotti: -18 (but only 3 settlements)
Dux: -30 if Final Epoch (or -20 if Autonomy-Military Dominance)

Dux were really hurting for resources and cut roads, definitely should have played Pivotal Event when they had the chance rather than just repeatedly smashing reachable Scotti for Prestige, although at the time it seemed like it would have guaranteed the win to Civitates.
I fail to see the Saxon win here???
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Ryan Keane wrote:
I thought it would be great to have a single thread to collect players' game results.

I welcome you to post your game plays here. If you can, please include the following information:

Scenario: Barbarian Conspiracy (BC), Petty Tyrants (PT), The Harder They Fall (HTF), or De Excidio Britanniae (DEB).

Mode: 4 players, 3p with barbarian team, 2p with teams, multiplayer solitaire, solo+3 bots, 2p+2bots, 3p+1bot...

Bots: if bots used, note if you used introductory, easy, or difficult. Otherwise, standard bots will be assumed.

End: Did the game end on 1st, 2nd..., or final Epoch?

Scores: victory margins for each faction

Any other notes of interest from the game you want to mention, like final Imperium status, but no need to write a full session report.

Thanks!
I would suggest noting the Imperium Status at game's end too
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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srmansfield wrote:
Scenario: Barbarian Conspiracy

Mode: Multiplayer solitaire

Bots: Not used

End: Final epoch (final card even!)

Score:

Scotti: 9
Dux: 0
Saxons: 0
Civitates: -9

Notes: 3rd game overall, 2nd solo. I must say the Civ's are the hardest for me to understand thus far. The two barbarians are tough to land and stabilize, but their sequence of play doesn't change too much through the conflict, the Scotti with their singular VC even more so. But those Civs, trying to manage a collapsing way of life, fearful perhaps of the region splintering to the point they piss of their ancient Roman allies...so tough.

On another note, I had the Saxons land at Cornwall (sorry for the modern inclusion) even though their beloved Fens were halfway across the country. But once there, they were able to penetrate east using a series of deep raids, secure more settlements, ignore the coastal forts and were able to cut the road network in half.
In my experience, Dumnonii (modern Cornwall/Devon) is a very pivotal location as it opens new Raiding avenues: Hibernicus to the Saxons (not many rich pickings, but useful to mess with the Scotti if needed), Britannicus to the Scotti (without Niall's Raid) (very rich pickings by Scotti standards, and often a way to mess with the Saxons). And of course the Britons, Civitates especially, like to prevent that Region from becoming a nest of pirates. Not to mention it can be boosted to Pop 2 and become a nice safe-ish area for the Civ...
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Ryan Keane
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GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
To start off the list, here's my latest game (3rd). Still learning.

The Harder They Fall
multiplayer solo - no bots
Saxons win on 2nd Epoch (of 4)

Saxons: 8
Civitates: 2 (Autonomy - Civilian Dominance)
Scotti: -18 (but only 3 settlements)
Dux: -30 if Final Epoch (or -20 if Autonomy-Military Dominance)

Dux were really hurting for resources and cut roads, definitely should have played Pivotal Event when they had the chance rather than just repeatedly smashing reachable Scotti for Prestige, although at the time it seemed like it would have guaranteed the win to Civitates.
I fail to see the Saxon win here???


Saxons had 38 renown (and 6 settlements), and Imperium was not at Fragmentation. Is a winning 8 point margin incorrect?
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Ryan Keane wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
To start off the list, here's my latest game (3rd). Still learning.

The Harder They Fall
multiplayer solo - no bots
Saxons win on 2nd Epoch (of 4)

Saxons: 8
Civitates: 2 (Autonomy - Civilian Dominance)
Scotti: -18 (but only 3 settlements)
Dux: -30 if Final Epoch (or -20 if Autonomy-Military Dominance)

Dux were really hurting for resources and cut roads, definitely should have played Pivotal Event when they had the chance rather than just repeatedly smashing reachable Scotti for Prestige, although at the time it seemed like it would have guaranteed the win to Civitates.
I fail to see the Saxon win here???


Saxons had 38 renown (and 6 settlements), and Imperium was not at Fragmentation. Is a winning 8 point margin incorrect?
Yes indeed :-) So that means we need more information on how the margin was achieved (particularly for the Saxons who have two :-) )
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Oerjan Ariander
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GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
To start off the list, here's my latest game (3rd). Still learning.

The Harder They Fall
multiplayer solo - no bots
Saxons win on 2nd Epoch (of 4)

Saxons: 8
Civitates: 2 (Autonomy - Civilian Dominance)
Scotti: -18 (but only 3 settlements)
Dux: -30 if Final Epoch (or -20 if Autonomy-Military Dominance)

Dux were really hurting for resources and cut roads, definitely should have played Pivotal Event when they had the chance rather than just repeatedly smashing reachable Scotti for Prestige, although at the time it seemed like it would have guaranteed the win to Civitates.
I fail to see the Saxon win here???


Saxons had 38 renown (and 6 settlements), and Imperium was not at Fragmentation. Is a winning 8 point margin incorrect?
Yes indeed :-) So that means we need more information on how the margin was achieved (particularly for the Saxons who have two :-) )

38 Renown and 6 Settlements would give them a Victory Margin of 38 + 6*5 - 50 = 18, not 8...

Under Roman Rule and Autonomy, the Saxons use the highest of their two possible Victory Margins. It seems somewhat unlikely that they'd manage to Control 18 Population after just 2 Epochs, much less 28

Regards,
Oerjan
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Ryan Keane
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Oerjan wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
To start off the list, here's my latest game (3rd). Still learning.

The Harder They Fall
multiplayer solo - no bots
Saxons win on 2nd Epoch (of 4)

Saxons: 8
Civitates: 2 (Autonomy - Civilian Dominance)
Scotti: -18 (but only 3 settlements)
Dux: -30 if Final Epoch (or -20 if Autonomy-Military Dominance)

Dux were really hurting for resources and cut roads, definitely should have played Pivotal Event when they had the chance rather than just repeatedly smashing reachable Scotti for Prestige, although at the time it seemed like it would have guaranteed the win to Civitates.
I fail to see the Saxon win here???


Saxons had 38 renown (and 6 settlements), and Imperium was not at Fragmentation. Is a winning 8 point margin incorrect?
Yes indeed :-) So that means we need more information on how the margin was achieved (particularly for the Saxons who have two :-) )

38 Renown and 6 Settlements would give them a Victory Margin of 38 + 6*5 - 50 = 18, not 8...

Under Roman Rule and Autonomy, the Saxons use the highest of their two possible Victory Margins. It seems somewhat unlikely that they'd manage to Control 18 Population after just 2 Epochs, much less 28

Regards,
Oerjan


But it wasn't final epoch, as both Saxons and Civitates had achieved their victory conditions, as I understand them. I thought the settlements x 5 only adds to the score during final epoch. FYI Saxons only had 6 pop at the end of my game.
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Ryan Keane wrote:
But it wasn't final epoch, as both Saxons and Civitates had achieved their victory conditions, as I understand them. I thought the settlements x 5 only adds to the score during final epoch. FYI Saxons only had 6 pop at the end of my game.
Exactly. Now the very concept of victory margin only applies if there is no Auto Victory, or as a tiebreaker if two or more factions reached their Auto Victory threshold at the same time.
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Ryan Keane
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GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
But it wasn't final epoch, as both Saxons and Civitates had achieved their victory conditions, as I understand them. I thought the settlements x 5 only adds to the score during final epoch. FYI Saxons only had 6 pop at the end of my game.
Exactly. Now the very concept of victory margin only applies if there is no Auto Victory, or as a tiebreaker if two or more factions reached their Auto Victory threshold at the same time.


Understood. The calculated margins for the Scotti and Dux in my game were meaningless - they had not even met the requirements, let alone surpassed their auto victory thresholds. For auto victories, I think it's still interesting to know how far a winning faction exceeded its threshold, and how close the tiebreak was if other factions also met their thresholds.
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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Ryan Keane wrote:
Oerjan wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
To start off the list, here's my latest game (3rd). Still learning.

The Harder They Fall
multiplayer solo - no bots
Saxons win on 2nd Epoch (of 4)

Saxons: 8
Civitates: 2 (Autonomy - Civilian Dominance)
Scotti: -18 (but only 3 settlements)
Dux: -30 if Final Epoch (or -20 if Autonomy-Military Dominance)

Dux were really hurting for resources and cut roads, definitely should have played Pivotal Event when they had the chance rather than just repeatedly smashing reachable Scotti for Prestige, although at the time it seemed like it would have guaranteed the win to Civitates.
I fail to see the Saxon win here???


Saxons had 38 renown (and 6 settlements), and Imperium was not at Fragmentation. Is a winning 8 point margin incorrect?
Yes indeed :-) So that means we need more information on how the margin was achieved (particularly for the Saxons who have two :-) )

38 Renown and 6 Settlements would give them a Victory Margin of 38 + 6*5 - 50 = 18, not 8...

Under Roman Rule and Autonomy, the Saxons use the highest of their two possible Victory Margins. It seems somewhat unlikely that they'd manage to Control 18 Population after just 2 Epochs, much less 28

Regards,
Oerjan


But it wasn't final epoch,

Doesn't matter. The Saxons and Civitates both exceeded their respective Victory Conditions as calculated in 7.2, and that caused the game to end; but as the rules are written, even during the Victory Phase (6.3, 7.1) the victor is the Faction with the highest Victory Margin as calculated by rule 7.3 - and 7.3 counts the number of Settlements.

This means that a Barbarian Faction with a lot of Settlements could win the game during a Victory Phase even if it didn't exceed its Victory Conditions, as long as at least one other Faction ended the game by exceeding their conditions...

Regards,
Oerjan
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Oerjan Ariander
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GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
But it wasn't final epoch, as both Saxons and Civitates had achieved their victory conditions, as I understand them. I thought the settlements x 5 only adds to the score during final epoch. FYI Saxons only had 6 pop at the end of my game.
Exactly. Now the very concept of victory margin only applies if there is no Auto Victory, or as a tiebreaker if two or more factions reached their Auto Victory threshold at the same time.

That's not what rules 6.3 and 7.1 says, Marc... they are both very explicit that the victor is determined only by Victory Margin (7.3), no matter why the game ended.

Regards,
Oerjan
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Oerjan wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
But it wasn't final epoch, as both Saxons and Civitates had achieved their victory conditions, as I understand them. I thought the settlements x 5 only adds to the score during final epoch. FYI Saxons only had 6 pop at the end of my game.
Exactly. Now the very concept of victory margin only applies if there is no Auto Victory, or as a tiebreaker if two or more factions reached their Auto Victory threshold at the same time.

That's not what rules 6.3 and 7.1 says, Marc... they are both very explicit that the victor is determined only by Victory Margin (7.3), no matter why the game ended.

Regards,
Oerjan
Hmmm... You are indeed right, now that you mention it, this is what the letter of the rules says. But this has never been my design intention. Victory margin modifications such as taking into account the number of settlements should only ever be taken into consideration to break a tie or of there is no Auto Victory. So... Errata/Clarification!

Probably rewrite 7.1 as follows:
"Whenever any Non-player Faction (1.5, 8.0) passes a victory check (7.2), all players lose equally. Otherwise, whenever any player does so, he wins. Should more than one player do so during the same Epoch Round, the highest victory margin (7.3) among the winners comes in 1st place, 2nd-highest comes in 2nd place, and so on. Ties go to any Non-players, then the Civitates, then the Dux, then the Saxons.
Note: if at least one Faction passes a victory check, no Faction that doesn't may win, no matter what their victory margin per 7.3 may be."
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Ryan Keane
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Oops, I didn't imagine tracking our scores would start an argument over the rules. blush

In this case, it seems it's just an issue of how big should a faction's winning score be (8 or 18), rather than who won. Is there really a likely scenario where a faction could have the highest positive margin but didn't meet its victory condition yet while another faction did meet its threshold but has a lower positive margin? I guess I can imagine the slim possibility that a barbarian faction with a really high renown but less than 4 settlements has a higher margin than another faction that met its threshold. Should the former be ineligible despite its higher margin in that case?

I think the simplest "errata" would simply be in clarifying the formulas for victory conditions. I would have the 5 x settlements included in the formulas for the Saxon and Scotti thresholds (dump the 30 and 45 thresholds), and then just make minimum 4 settlements a condition of meeting that threshold E.g. a Saxon renown of 36 + 3 settlements x 5 is not sufficient to meet the 50 threshold for triggering game end, but will still give it a margin of +1 if another faction triggers game end.

For me, it would also help to use 2 extra counters on the track that represent "current Renown+ 5x current # of Settlements" for each barbarian faction.
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Ryan Keane wrote:
Oops, I didn't imagine tracking our scores would start an argument over the rules. blush
No worries, it's for the greater good :-)

Ryan Keane wrote:
In this case, it seems it's just an issue of how big should a faction's winning score be (8 or 18), rather than who won. Is there really a likely scenario where a faction could have the highest positive margin but didn't meet its victory condition yet while another faction did meet its threshold but has a lower positive margin? I guess I can imagine the slim possibility that a barbarian faction with a really high renown but less than 4 settlements has a higher margin than another faction that met its threshold. Should the former be ineligible despite its higher margin in that case?
Such a scenario could easily occur indeed in the mid-ti-late game especially as it is not uncommon for the Scotti to then have a ton of Renown, but not being able to retain 4 Settlements on the map to the end of the Epoch.

Ryan Keane wrote:
I think the simplest "errata" would simply be in clarifying the formulas for victory conditions. I would have the 5 x settlements included in the formulas for the Saxon and Scotti thresholds (dump the 30 and 45 thresholds), and then just make minimum 4 settlements a condition of meeting that threshold E.g. a Saxon renown of 36 + 3 settlements x 5 is not sufficient to meet the 50 threshold for triggering game end, but will still give it a margin of +1 if another faction triggers game end.

For me, it would also help to use 2 extra counters on the track that represent "current Renown+ 5x current # of Settlements" for each barbarian faction.
As you can imagine, a lot of thought and back-and-fro'ing went into the victory conditions, and making the number of Settlements a necessary condition and not a victory condition per se is not innocent: I don't want a Barbarian to compensate insufficient Renown by tons of strategically useless Settlements. The key rationale for having a secondary victory condition to Renown is to avoid a situation where a Barbarian has reached his Renown target and could simply sit aside without the other players being able to do anything about his impending win. Settlements are not uncorrelated to winning, as they tend to be essential either as springboards of more efficient raiding, span centres of overwhelming (Saxon) armies, or bases for establishing Control (Saxons), but they ensure that you remain vulnerable (to a degree - this is typically more an issue for the Scotti than for the Saxons, as intended)
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Ryan Keane
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That makes perfect sense. My confusion is in thinking of the victory checks as formulas or scores. They should just be yes/no. If more than one faction meets all of its conditions, then use the appropriate victory margin formula to break ties among those and only those factions.
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Yep, exactly :-)
 
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Joel Tamburo
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GouyonRety wrote:
Oerjan wrote:
GouyonRety wrote:
Ryan Keane wrote:
But it wasn't final epoch, as both Saxons and Civitates had achieved their victory conditions, as I understand them. I thought the settlements x 5 only adds to the score during final epoch. FYI Saxons only had 6 pop at the end of my game.
Exactly. Now the very concept of victory margin only applies if there is no Auto Victory, or as a tiebreaker if two or more factions reached their Auto Victory threshold at the same time.

That's not what rules 6.3 and 7.1 says, Marc... they are both very explicit that the victor is determined only by Victory Margin (7.3), no matter why the game ended.

Regards,
Oerjan
Hmmm... You are indeed right, now that you mention it, this is what the letter of the rules says. But this has never been my design intention. Victory margin modifications such as taking into account the number of settlements should only ever be taken into consideration to break a tie or of there is no Auto Victory. So... Errata/Clarification!

Probably rewrite 7.1 as follows:
"Whenever any Non-player Faction (1.5, 8.0) passes a victory check (7.2), all players lose equally. Otherwise, whenever any player does so, he wins. Should more than one player do so during the same Epoch Round, the highest victory margin (7.3) among the winners comes in 1st place, 2nd-highest comes in 2nd place, and so on. Ties go to any Non-players, then the Civitates, then the Dux, then the Saxons.
Note: if at least one Faction passes a victory check, no Faction that doesn't may win, no matter what their victory margin per 7.3 may be."


This is shades of our discussion last week in another thread regarding end of game victory. Since the intent is to require a set number of settlements you may want to add text to avert them being able to compensate for settlements with Renown.
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Morgane Gouyon-Rety
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Joelist wrote:
This is shades of our discussion last week in another thread regarding end of game victory. Since the intent is to require a set number of settlements you may want to add text to avert them being able to compensate for settlements with Renown.
Joel, don't you think my proposed rewrite of 7.1 would be sufficient? There is no word in 6.3 or 7.3 about including the number of Settlements in assessing victory for anything but tie breaking or final Epoch victory determination when no auto-victory.
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Joel Tamburo
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GouyonRety wrote:
Joelist wrote:
This is shades of our discussion last week in another thread regarding end of game victory. Since the intent is to require a set number of settlements you may want to add text to avert them being able to compensate for settlements with Renown.
Joel, don't you think my proposed rewrite of 7.1 would be sufficient? There is no word in 6.3 or 7.3 about including the number of Settlements in assessing victory for anything but tie breaking or final Epoch victory determination when no auto-victory.


Sounds logical.
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I'm sorry that this thread has gone quiet, because I just came here looking for information about balance. I even thought of posting a poll, but since polls only let a user vote once, I wasn't ever really happy about how to get useful data. Anyway, here is my answer to the OP:

Scenario: De Excidio Britanniae (DEB)
Mode: 4 player
Bots: n/a
End: Third Epoch
Imperium: Had just switched to Autonomy
Score: Didn't keep everyone's scores, but I was the Civitates and had 30 Briton Control with Civilian Dominance when the Imperium status changed to Autonomy. The funny part is that my opponents successfully joined together to keep me from winning leading up to the second Epoch, but somehow they all forgot until it was too late as the third Epoch card showed up at its earliest opportunity.

My original thought was that the two COIN-experienced but not Pendragon experienced players should be the barbarians, and that is how we played it, but thinking the game over now, I realize that - while the barbarians' situation is simpler at the game's beginning - they are still involved in the tricky balancing act of getting the two Roman factions beaten down without letting either of them win. Bottom line is that this entry in the series has a lot of moving parts that a new player will probably miss.
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mmccalpin wrote:
I'm sorry that this thread has gone quiet, because I just came here looking for information about balance. I even thought of posting a poll, but since polls only let a user vote once, I wasn't ever really happy about how to get useful data. Anyway, here is my answer to the OP:

Scenario: De Excidio Britanniae (DEB)
Mode: 4 player
Bots: n/a
End: Third Epoch
Imperium: Had just switched to Autonomy
Score: Didn't keep everyone's scores, but I was the Civitates and had 30 Briton Control with Civilian Dominance when the Imperium status changed to Autonomy. The funny part is that my opponents successfully joined together to keep me from winning leading up to the second Epoch, but somehow they all forgot until it was too late as the third Epoch card showed up at its earliest opportunity.

My original thought was that the two COIN-experienced but not Pendragon experienced players should be the barbarians, and that is how we played it, but thinking the game over now, I realize that - while the barbarians' situation is simpler at the game's beginning - they are still involved in the tricky balancing act of getting the two Roman factions beaten down without letting either of them win. Bottom line is that this entry in the series has a lot of moving parts that a new player will probably miss.
I'll take that as a compliment :-)
 
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