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Western Legends» Forums » General

Subject: Wording on card: Lose a wound rss

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Mark Mackin
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I've watched all the videos and it looks like a really fun game. One thing that struck me though was that The video of the cards show a couple that say 'lose a wound'. I think that this could be confusing and would be better worded as 'heal a wound'. I'm off to bed now but I'll be pledging on kickstarter tomorrow.
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Casey Clark
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bionikbonce wrote:
I've watched all the videos and it looks like a really fun game. One thing that struck me though was that The video of the cards show a couple that say 'lose a wound'. I think that this could be confusing and would be better worded as 'heal a wound'. I'm off to bed now but I'll be pledging on kickstarter tomorrow.


Agreed! The word “lose” has a negative connotation so people immediately think it is a bad thing and may be confused. I like “heal” much better.
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Collin Pastorius
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Healing is a little more thematic wording too.
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Travis R. Chance
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Gain is a term in the game, as is lose. Since they are opposites this clearly conveys the mechanisms, albeit perhaps less thematically
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Kolossal wrote:
Gain is a term in the game, as is lose. Since they are opposites this clearly conveys the mechanisms, albeit perhaps less thematically


So what's the argument against using the word "heal"?
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James Clarke
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Kolossal wrote:
Gain is a term in the game, as is lose. Since they are opposites this clearly conveys the mechanisms, albeit perhaps less thematically


In that case, I'd say that gain (a wound) wouldn't be an ideal choice either.

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Brad Scaggs
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I was definitely confused on this when I played. I sold some cattle and lost a wound. I assumed (incorrectly) that I was gored by one of my cattle and lost health. Instead, the cattle licked my wounds.
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Mark Shilling
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Perhaps "Suffer" a wound and "Heal" a wound might work better.
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Harv Veerman
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Kolossal wrote:
Gain is a term in the game, as is lose. Since they are opposites this clearly conveys the mechanisms, albeit perhaps less thematically


Then perhaps gain/lose a health would have been better?
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Richard Dickson
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I start the game with zero wounds. I gain a wound. Then I lose a wound. I'm back to zero. I don't see how this is unclear.
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Rick Waterschoot
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Kolossal wrote:
Gain is a term in the game, as is lose. Since they are opposites this clearly conveys the mechanisms, albeit perhaps less thematically


I understand the argument of not wanting to introduce extra terms unless necessary. However, some people in my game group don't speak English as well as others. I could see them struggling with "losing wounds" as they probably think they will "lose health". I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) to "gain" something in the game is always a positive thing and to "lose" something is negative, but right now wounds are the only exception to that rule.

superdupergeek wrote:
Perhaps "Suffer" a wound and "Heal" a wound might work better.


Mad Math wrote:
Then perhaps gain/lose a health would have been better?


In my opinion, these are both clearer solutions
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Justin Davis
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Mad Math wrote:
Kolossal wrote:
Gain is a term in the game, as is lose. Since they are opposites this clearly conveys the mechanisms, albeit perhaps less thematically


Then perhaps gain/lose a health would have been better?


I like this option the best so far.
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Travis R. Chance
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Guest wrote:
Kolossal wrote:
Gain is a term in the game, as is lose. Since they are opposites this clearly conveys the mechanisms, albeit perhaps less thematically


So what's the argument against using the word "heal"?


Honestly? We have had months of testing and dev with no issue. This has never come up once. I'd have to task my graphic designer to go back and revise hundreds of components--which makes me a tad nervous that something like a typo could happen in the process. I understand the thematic notion here, but I am a proponent of clarity first then theme.
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James Clarke
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An important consideration is that wounds are recorded by a pawn on a 4-stop track.

Given that 'wounds' is the designer's preferred terminology (not health), and that wounds are counted on a track (not with chits), the clearest notation would be:

Increase Wounds by 1
Reduce Wounds by 1
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Kolossal wrote:
I understand the thematic notion here, but I am a proponent of clarity first then theme.


But the clarity isn't given here or at least not as strong as it could be which is why this thread exists in the first place. Plus how is "lose a wound" more clear than "heal a wound"? Everybody knows what healing a wound means and healing is ALWAYS good whereas the word "lose" is seldom something positive in a game yet here players have to associate it with something positive which is a clash between human expectation/experience and game intent.
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Travis R. Chance
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Guest wrote:
Kolossal wrote:
I understand the thematic notion here, but I am a proponent of clarity first then theme.


But the clarity isn't given here or at least not as strong as it could be which is why this thread exists in the first place. Plus how is "lose a wound" more clear than "heal a wound"? Everybody knows what healing a wound means and healing is ALWAYS good whereas the word "lose" is seldom something positive in a game yet here players have to associate it with something positive which is a clash between human expectation/experience and game intent.


I appreciate the comments and feedback. I am simply using two very large sample sizes of testing between a US and French group, wherein this comment has not come up in a combined 300+ games. As a developer, data is king. It would be pretty kneejerk to make any changes without considering what I know to be true in terms of testing.
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Rick Waterschoot
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Kolossal wrote:
Guest wrote:
Kolossal wrote:
I understand the thematic notion here, but I am a proponent of clarity first then theme.


But the clarity isn't given here or at least not as strong as it could be which is why this thread exists in the first place. Plus how is "lose a wound" more clear than "heal a wound"? Everybody knows what healing a wound means and healing is ALWAYS good whereas the word "lose" is seldom something positive in a game yet here players have to associate it with something positive which is a clash between human expectation/experience and game intent.


I appreciate the comments and feedback. I am simply using two very large sample sizes of testing between a US and French group, wherein this comment has not come up in a combined 300+ games. As a developer, data is king. It would be pretty kneejerk to make any changes without considering what I know to be true in terms of testing.


It would be silly to ignore the test results and start changing it right away only because a few people think it's a good idea, perhaps there will be more people who like the idea when they see this post. Not that I'm questioning the quality of the playtests, but did you test among a lot of non-native English speakers? As I think this group of people is most likely to make these mistakes.

A change in the text would be a minor detail, but I think it would be an improvement. I do see your points about test results and risk of changing the cards. Either way I'm super excited to play this game!
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Brad Scaggs
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Maybe this could be solved as simply as adding a line to a FAQ either in the rules or on BGG regarding how losing wounds is a good thing.

It might just be something that players need to adapt their thinking for this game. Wounds are bad. Losing wounds would mean to get rid of something bad.
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Mark Mackin
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As the OP and definitely a native English speaker I can only say that immediately on seeing the card I had doubts on the intention of the wording. Lose a wound has a negative connotation and is definitely counter intuitive. As a English speaker I would say either heal a wound or gain a health or even at a push remove a wound but never lose a wound. I'm sorry that nobody in your 300+ play test brought this to your attention but it's just badly worded.
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Rick Waterschoot
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cromusz wrote:
Maybe this could be solved as simply as adding a line to a FAQ either in the rules or on BGG regarding how losing wounds is a good thing.

It might just be something that players need to adapt their thinking for this game. Wounds are bad. Losing wounds would mean to get rid of something bad.


I don't think a line in the rulebook would be solving the issue. It's not about people not being able to figure out that getting rid of a wound is a good thing, it's about that split-second thought process when losing a wound which sounds like losing health that might make it a little confusing.
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James Clarke
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Kolossal wrote:
As a developer, data is king. It would be pretty kneejerk to make any changes without considering what I know to be true in terms of testing.


Please don't assume that test feedback = truth. Test samples don't necessarily catch everything, and what they miss can often be more telling than what they find. This is ably demonstrated here by the English speakers who agree that the wording 'lose a wound' is incongruous.

I'm off now to lose a headache.
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Travis R. Chance
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Highland Cow wrote:
Kolossal wrote:
As a developer, data is king. It would be pretty kneejerk to make any changes without considering what I know to be true in terms of testing.


Please don't assume that test feedback = truth. Test samples don't necessarily catch everything, and what they miss can often be more telling than what they find. This is ably demonstrated here by the English speakers who agree that the wording 'lose a wound' is incongruous.

I'm off now to lose a headache.


Points noted. Thanks for sharing everyone. Taking it into consideration.
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PK Levine
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I think this could be addressed pretty easily by just clarifying it in the rules, under the section on wounds. Make it clear that when you get shot, you "gain a wound," and when you heal, you "lose a wound." That way no one will be confused.
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pkitty wrote:
I think this could be addressed pretty easily by just clarifying it in the rules, under the section on wounds. Make it clear that when you get shot, you "gain a wound," and when you heal, you "lose a wound." That way no one will be confused.


You just described the problem and offered it as the solution. If the wording were perfectly clear in the first place then it wouldn't need to be clarified in the rules.
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For what it’s worth, my wife and I had no problem interpreting what the card meant. Granted we are both native English speakers, but I also think “gaining a wound” is pretty clear.
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