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Subject: Tess of the d'Urbervilles: A Pure Woman rss

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Ben Foy
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In this book, Tess (a peasant) falls victim to sexual assault by a noble named Alec.

Over 200 years later, this book still is relevant. Tess is kept ignorant of sex, yet everyone blames her when Alec takes advantage of that ignorance.

We would like to believe we have advanced as a society, yet the same stuff still goes on and the same lies are still being told. And people are still arguing that we should not tell women about sex.

Not only are young women who receive sexual education better able to avoid the sexual predators but they also are able to avoid unwanted pregnancies. That is part of the reason for a nationwide drop in abortions.

Yet even with the demonstrated success of this policy, teaching sexual education is still frowned on in many parts of the country. Because the reasoning goes: 'teaching them about sex will make them more promiscuous'. This is despite recent studies that indicate the opposite is true. Most young women, who understand what sex is, want to wait until they are ready and meet the right person.
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Pontifex Maximus
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It does become hard to believe that we have advanced as a society when this is one of the reactions to the metoo movement. This from a letter signed by Catherine Deneuve and 100 other women printed in LeMonde

Quote:
“Rape is a crime. But flirting with insistently or clumsily isn’t a crime, and chivalry is not a machismo aggression,” the letter says, adding that men should have the “indispensable freedom to offend and bother” women and that the #MeToo movement encouraged “puritanism.”


https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/catherine-deneuve-signs-...
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Alexandre Piquet
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Kumitedad wrote:

It does become hard to believe that we have advanced as a society when this is one of the reactions to the metoo movement. This from a letter signed by Catherine Deneuve and 100 other women printed in LeMonde

Quote:
“Rape is a crime. But flirting with insistently or clumsily isn’t a crime, and chivalry is not a machismo aggression,” the letter says, adding that men should have the “indispensable freedom to offend and bother” women and that the #MeToo movement encouraged “puritanism.”


https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/catherine-deneuve-signs-...


It's a bit more complicated than "we are against this hashtag".
This letter is a patchwork of remarks made by 100 women and, when some of them signed, it had not a title yet.
 
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Xahendir wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:

It does become hard to believe that we have advanced as a society when this is one of the reactions to the metoo movement. This from a letter signed by Catherine Deneuve and 100 other women printed in LeMonde

Quote:
“Rape is a crime. But flirting with insistently or clumsily isn’t a crime, and chivalry is not a machismo aggression,” the letter says, adding that men should have the “indispensable freedom to offend and bother” women and that the #MeToo movement encouraged “puritanism.”


https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/catherine-deneuve-signs-...


It's a bit more complicated than "we are against this hashtag".
This letter is a patchwork of remarks made by 100 women and, when some of them signed, it had not a title yet.


Some of said remarks are somewhat stunning.

Quote:
The victims have been “men who are sanctioned in their work, pushed to resign, etc., when their only wrongdoing was to touch a knee, try to steal a kiss, speak about intimate things during a professional dinner or send messages that are sexually loaded to a woman who wasn’t attracted to them,” the letter says.


https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/catherine-deneuve-signs-...

or this

Quote:
They insisted that women were "sufficiently aware that the sexual urge is by its nature wild and aggressive. But we are also clear-eyed enough not to confuse an awkward attempt to pick someone up with a sexual attack."


https://www.thelocal.fr/20180109/catherine-deneuve-denounces...

And what kind of freedom is it to "bother women"?

There is somewhat of a backlash against this letter right now, and it would seem justifiably so.


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Alexandre Piquet
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Kumitedad wrote:
Some of said remarks are somewhat stunning.


Indeed. About "urges", "sexual penury", ...

"Sexual harassment policies" seem far more strict in the US than in France.
And a lot of people consider that you can't qualify something as "harassment" if it has happened only once: it needs at least a solicitation, then a refusal, and then an other solicitation to say "it's harassment !".

Quote:
And what kind of freedom is it to "bother women"?


If I go to a pub, see an attractive women, sit alongside her, and then compliment her for her dress, I may "bother" her.
But the harassment starts only if she asks me to leave and I refuse.

The signatory I heard on the radio this morning was very clear it wasn't a letter asking for a "right to fondle".
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Xahendir wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
Some of said remarks are somewhat stunning.


Indeed. About "urges", "sexual penury", ...

"Sexual harassment policies" seem far more strict in the US than in France.
And a lot of people consider that you can't qualify something as "harassment" if it has happened only once: it needs at least a solicitation, then a refusal, and then an other solicitation to say "it's harassment !".

Quote:
And what kind of freedom is it to "bother women"?


If I go to a pub, see an attractive women, sit alongside her, and then compliment her for her dress, I may "bother" her.
But the harassment starts only if she asks me to leave and I refuse.

The signatory I heard on the radio this morning was very clear it wasn't a letter asking for a "right to fondle".


Because the objections are a strawman version of the actual complaints in something like the Weinstein case. They truly SLAYED the strawman. Well done, French women.
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Pontifex Maximus
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Xahendir wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
Some of said remarks are somewhat stunning.


Indeed. About "urges", "sexual penury", ...

"Sexual harassment policies" seem far more strict in the US than in France.
And a lot of people consider that you can't qualify something as "harassment" if it has happened only once: it needs at least a solicitation, then a refusal, and then an other solicitation to say "it's harassment !".

Quote:
And what kind of freedom is it to "bother women"?


If I go to a pub, see an attractive women, sit alongside her, and then compliment her for her dress, I may "bother" her.
But the harassment starts only if she asks me to leave and I refuse.

The signatory I heard on the radio this morning was very clear it wasn't a letter asking for a "right to fondle".


Then the signatory missed this part of the letter

Quote:
The victims have been “men who are sanctioned in their work, pushed to resign, etc., when their only wrongdoing was to touch a knee, try to steal a kiss, speak about intimate things during a professional dinner or send messages that are sexually loaded to a woman who wasn’t attracted to them,” the letter says.


Sounds like a "right to fondle" to these old tired eyes
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Kumitedad wrote:
Xahendir wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
Some of said remarks are somewhat stunning.


Indeed. About "urges", "sexual penury", ...

"Sexual harassment policies" seem far more strict in the US than in France.
And a lot of people consider that you can't qualify something as "harassment" if it has happened only once: it needs at least a solicitation, then a refusal, and then an other solicitation to say "it's harassment !".

Quote:
And what kind of freedom is it to "bother women"?


If I go to a pub, see an attractive women, sit alongside her, and then compliment her for her dress, I may "bother" her.
But the harassment starts only if she asks me to leave and I refuse.

The signatory I heard on the radio this morning was very clear it wasn't a letter asking for a "right to fondle".


Then the signatory missed this part of the letter

Quote:
The victims have been “men who are sanctioned in their work, pushed to resign, etc., when their only wrongdoing was to touch a knee, try to steal a kiss, speak about intimate things during a professional dinner or send messages that are sexually loaded to a woman who wasn’t attracted to them,” the letter says.


Sounds like a "right to fondle" to these old tired eyes


Yes and no. I think the term "right to fondle" was very specifically chosen. When I think of "fondle," I think of the covered-by-underwear stuff. So if you go with that, then the knee-touching and the attempted-kiss-stealing doesn't count. So basically, what counts as a fondle?

Regardless of the answer to that, the expectation of forced advances like those fondles/almostfondles are lewd and repulsive and need to be pared out of society. But the fact that they are trying to hide behind semantics means they know they are in the wrong but don't want to give up their "perks" just yet.
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I wonder how much of this is European mores vs American. I know in Italy there is a cultural concept among some older people that wolf whistles etc are a genuine compliment. Along with that comes an idea (again, for some older people) that men are expected to harass / flirt with pretty much all women equally, e.g. a barman is expected to flirt with / harass the 60 year olds just as much as the 20 year olds.
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Wow. I read that book in AP English my last year of high school. I remember virtually nothing about it except that I hated it at the time. If it deals with the issues the OP says, I probably just did not get what was going on and the teacher wasn't exactly going to clue me in.
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sbszine wrote:
I wonder how much of this is European mores vs American. I know in Italy there is a cultural concept among some older people that wolf whistles etc are a genuine compliment. Along with that comes an idea (again, for some older people) that men are expected to harass / flirt with pretty much all women equally, e.g. a barman is expected to flirt with / harass the 60 year olds just as much as the 20 year olds.
Perhaps. Remember the Europe is a pretty diverse place, and the north is, in this respect, a lot closer to the Anglosaxon world than to France / Italy.

In any case, I look forward to some other French women disagreeing with the actresses. Alexandre, is there much discussion in France about what is and is not harassment and which kind of flirtation is merited and which is not, or is there general agreement?
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whac3 wrote:
Wow. I read that book in AP English my last year of high school. I remember virtually nothing about it except that I hated it at the time. If it deals with the issues the OP says, I probably just did not get what was going on and the teacher wasn't exactly going to clue me in.


I forget if I read it in high school, because I was trying so desperately hard to care about nothing.
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Kumitedad wrote:
Xahendir wrote:
Quote:
And what kind of freedom is it to "bother women"?


If I go to a pub, see an attractive women, sit alongside her, and then compliment her for her dress, I may "bother" her.
But the harassment starts only if she asks me to leave and I refuse.

The signatory I heard on the radio this morning was very clear it wasn't a letter asking for a "right to fondle".


Then the signatory missed this part of the letter

Quote:
The victims have been “men who are sanctioned in their work, pushed to resign, etc., when their only wrongdoing was to touch a knee, try to steal a kiss, speak about intimate things during a professional dinner or send messages that are sexually loaded to a woman who wasn’t attracted to them,” the letter says.


Sounds like a "right to fondle" to these old tired eyes


If a man sat down next to me in a pub, paid me a complement and gave me his number, then I'd probably feel quite good about that exchange. I would most likely not be interested but it's a nice confidence boost.

However, if I was sitting in a pub and a man came sat next to me, put his hand on my leg and kissed me on the cheek ('a stolen kiss') then that would make me uncomfortable, annoyed and potentially a bit scared (depending on the man).

I don't think that the 'right to fondle' would even be contemplated if examined from a gender neutral perspective; men would not put up with that kind of behaviour from other men, so why should women have to put up with it?
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Alexandre Piquet
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sbszine wrote:
I wonder how much of this is European mores vs American. I know in Italy there is a cultural concept among some older people that wolf whistles etc are a genuine compliment. Along with that comes an idea (again, for some older people) that men are expected to harass / flirt with pretty much all women equally, e.g. a barman is expected to flirt with / harass the 60 year olds just as much as the 20 year olds.


It can be tolerated from an old inoffensive guy that you know ... but only because he is inoffensive.

Venga2 wrote:
Alexandre, is there much discussion in France about what is and is not harassment and which kind of flirtation is merited and which is not, or is there general agreement?


Most people agree on what is harassment (or assault, or rape ...) but there are extremists on both sides.
For example there are folks thinking grabbing a woman by the tight to steal a kiss is just seduction (while most people think it's an assault) and feminists that consider that making a compliment to a woman is sexual harassment (while most people think that if it's a compliment said with no sexual allusion it's fine).

At the moment the big outrage is caused by Brigitte Lahaie (one of the 100 signatories, ex-porn star and radio host) who said to Caroline de Haas (CEO, "media personnality" and feminist, considered by many as extremist) "you can get an orgasm during a rape" while Caroline de Haas was raped.
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sbszine wrote:
I wonder how much of this is European mores vs American. I know in Italy there is a cultural concept among some older people that wolf whistles etc are a genuine compliment. Along with that comes an idea (again, for some older people) that men are expected to harass / flirt with pretty much all women equally, e.g. a barman is expected to flirt with / harass the 60 year olds just as much as the 20 year olds.


I take your point about mores. OTOH, it was once a given in the American south that black slaves would only work if you gave them a good thrashing once in a while (to pick an extreme example; for one from today, female genital mutilation is also a cultural concept...). Being common doesn't make a more right.
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Xahendir wrote:
At the moment the big outrage is caused by Brigitte Lahaie (one of the 100 signatories, ex-porn star and radio host) who said to Caroline de Haas (CEO, "media personnality" and feminist, considered by many as extremist) "you can get an orgasm during a rape"

So fucking what? You can also get a cool story from getting hit in the face with a beer bottle when you wake up during a burglary; any volunteers? I expect any woman would trade that orgasm to not get raped, in the same way my dad would've traded that story to get his eye back.

(I know, you're not saying that. Good that there's outrage.)
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whac3 wrote:
Wow. I read that book in AP English my last year of high school. I remember virtually nothing about it except that I hated it at the time. If it deals with the issues the OP says, I probably just did not get what was going on and the teacher wasn't exactly going to clue me in.


I can see why you might not have liked it. The book is written as a series of slow motion train wrecks. It isn't uplifting by any stretch of the imagination. I read it for fun. What does that say about me?
 
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Terwox wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Wow. I read that book in AP English my last year of high school. I remember virtually nothing about it except that I hated it at the time. If it deals with the issues the OP says, I probably just did not get what was going on and the teacher wasn't exactly going to clue me in.


I forget if I read it in high school, because I was trying so desperately hard to care about nothing.


No, that was The Catcher in the Rye
 
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