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Rajas of the Ganges» Forums » Rules

Subject: Pay the cost -- do not get the benefit? rss

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François + Daphné
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Saint-Hyacinthe
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Is it allowed to occupy a space and not take the benefit?

For example, going to the Silk stall in the marketplace and paying a die, even though I do not have a single Silk market in my province. That would be done to block my opponent and his numerous Silk markets, of course.

I do not see that this is explicitly forbidden in the rules.

Thanks!
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Susan
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I would say your move is allowed...

On page 15 it states:

"The placement of workers always proceeds in this order:
1. Place a worker
2. Pay costs, if required: give up money and/or dice
3. Carry out the action

Then further on the page it states:

"The same applies to actions for which you have to pay dice – if you
don’t have any (suitable) dice, you can’t carry out the applicable action."


So in your case, it appears to me you are satisfying the rules - by placing a worker and paying the costs. You are free to carry out the action but alas you don't have any silk to sell so nothing happens.

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Mike White
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I would agree with this, in the absence of a definitive ruling. The wording relating to both market spaces is "may". So you can take the spot, pay the costs then you "may" score. You don't have to.
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R. O. Schaefer
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I agree too. Usually this is written explicitely in the rules if forbidden, like for instance in Russian railroads.

Strategy wise it's probably only a serious option in a 2 player game, and even there you are better of to secure at least one such market in time for yourself. If you've done this, however, it's often an option you should seriously consider in 2 player games. Having blocked that space once it works as a threat for future rounds too.
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Duarte
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But it does say that you carry out the action. If you can't carry out the action, even though you can pay for it, you shouldn't be able to occupy that spot.

That's just a mean move and I don't think that was intended by the designers.
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Paulo Renato
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Vila Nova Gaia
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Dna_Boy wrote:
But it does say that you carry out the action. If you can't carry out the action, even though you can pay for it, you shouldn't be able to occupy that spot.

That's just a mean move and I don't think that was intended by the designers.


he can carry out the action... and he does carry out the action, it just generates 0 money and 0 fame because he doesn't have the appropriate stall
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Duarte
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I understand what you and all the others are saying, but it's not really carrying out the action, is it?
But if we're going to be literal, then I agree.

It all depends on the spirit that the designers wanted for the game, that's what I meant. If they wanted to allow players to have this kind of mean take that moves, then it's fine and it is what it is.

Cause that's just a geek gaming thing: occupy the spot, even though you can't really use it, to deny it to someone else.

One thing is occupy a spot that you don't need to use, but you can, another is occupy a spot that can't even use.
We just need to know which case they intended.

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Paulo Renato
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The thing here is that he can use the spot... it's not a spot where you have to spend anything... it's a spot where you have to have something of a particular type and he has... he has 0... so what he gets from the 0 he has is a reward of also 0.

So to me he is using the spot.

If it was go to the spot and spend 1 or whatever number of resources greater than 0 and he didn't have any I would agree with you that since he can't spend he can't carry out the action... in this particular case is that you go to the space and you are rewarded by how many things of a particular type you have...
In this case he has 0 so his reward is 0 meaning that he carried out the action
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Duarte
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I know that, like I said, I understand the wording of it, but having 0 it's not really having, isn't it?

It's the spirit of action that I'm talking about. It's like if you were going to this place, that only one person can go, and pay a fee to collect rent from apartments but not having apartments to collect rent from.

Technically you can do it but, was it their intention to allow that in this game or is it just an inaccurate use of words?
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Mike White
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I think you are in a dangerous area if you overrule literal rulings for a presumption of the designers' intention. It's pretty universal that the use of 'may' in English language rule books means that the player has the choice to do, or not do, whatever the 'may' refers to. I can't see anything contradicting this in the rules. It wouldn't be the first time that a designers' intention has been lost in translation to English rulebook though.

I do agree that this adds a slightly mean element to the game. However I think it's less mean when it's only of value in stopping someone who is pursuing a simple obvious strategy to its ultimate extent.
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Jon
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Worker placement games are all about denial. Typically this comes across in a passive aggressive way. “Oh, I’m sorry, did you want that spot? Sorry old chap but I needed it too.” You get the benefit AND you deny your opponents.

In this case, your direct benefit is minimal or even absent. But you still deny. And it comes at a cost. You have to take an action to do this.

Unless the rules specify something along the lines of “you cannot take the spot if you cannot fully perform the action” etc. then this should be fair game. If the objection is that it “feel mean” or “against the spirit,” I’d suggest that while perhaps so, this type of action selection is about taking things away from the rest of the board. The designers could have said “all actions are open to all”. They chose to make it where only one person can occupy an action space per round.
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