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Subject: Any suggestions on how best to add a no effect rolling modifier to every attack deck? rss

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Ben Kyo
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I've been following the endless discussions about how rolling modifiers added to an attack deck turn advantage from a guaranteed hit to a possible miss, and how some people think this means you need to avoid rolling modifier perks and yadda yadda yadda.

I also saw a suggestion for the first time today for a potential "fix" that appealed to me: add a no effect rolling modifier to every starting attack deck by default.

I like the idea of eliminating guaranteed hits with advantage right from the beginning of the game, if it's going to become something that happens later on in the game anyway, so I would like to implement the idea.

The only problem is, I'm not sure how best to go about it. AFAIK there aren't any POD services that provide exactly the right cards (and in any case I live in Japan). Even so, has anyone made files for such cards for use with sleeves (with a bleed)? Are there any non-essential cards in the game that could be stickered? Should I just use proxy rolling modifier cards?

I haven't found any specific posts or threads so far, just threads on making the additional attack deck supplied by Isaac for a 5th player.

NB: I won't reply to any responses that tell me I shouldn't do this or that I'm wrong for wanting to make this happen, or that another variant is better. Helpful suggestions on how to make it happen, please!
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Matt Ziemer
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
I think your simplest and best solution would be to make a rolling symbol on one of the existing +0 cards in each deck. This will slightly change the odds, reducing the odds of drawing a +0 a little but this might help to balance the fact that you can now miss with advantage.

Anyway that what i would do.
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Ben Kyo
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
meziemer wrote:
I think your simplest and best solution would be to make a rolling symbol on one of the existing +0 cards in each deck. This will slightly change the odds, reducing the odds of drawing a +0 a little but this might help to balance the fact that you can now miss with advantage.

Anyway that what i would do.

Ideally I want to have zero impact on the non-advantage/disadvantage odds, particularly when deck thinning and curses and the like are taken into account, but this is a good idea for a low-effort-required solution, thanks.
 
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Ben Kyo
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Does every class have a +0 (something) rolling modifier in their class attack deck? If they do, I could use one as a +0 rolling proxy until a perk is taken that gives a rolling modifier.
 
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Ben Greig
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
not every deck will have a +0 something,

if your happy to use an app for the monster deck then you can simply sticker the monster'd decks 0's for rolling mods, or you can print out a entire monster deck since it doesn't have to have the same size cards.

The final option is to use some of the bless/curse cards, however there is meant to be a hard limit on these so you could possibly run into times that you come up a little short (depending on classes playing mostly)

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Josh
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Honestly this feels like a cure worse than the illness.
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Stefan
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
You would change the chances for missing with advantage, no curse, and a standard modifier deck from 0 to some small number. But this will not change, that additional RM will increase this chance. You would even have more rolling modifiers in your deck after progressing towards your full end game deck and thus weaken the effects of advantage and disadvantage even more. Try to invest on some card production company or a second game, if you think this would be worth it, but imho you will just waste your money.
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Ben Kyo
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Printer Studio and sleeves might be the way to go, I was surprised to find out today that their shipping to Japan isn't too bad.

 
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Patrick Pachl
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
I printed out an additional monster attack modifier deck (found in the file section here) to accomodate for a fifth player. If you do not want to add a fifth player the original monster deck cards are now free to be modified and added to the player decks.
Whether you add a card to the deck or replace a standard +0 card with a rolling modifier +0 card, the statistical effects are equally minor.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Shadrach wrote:
Honestly this feels like a cure worse than the illness.


Depends on what you think the illness is. If the illness is how rolling modifiers make it so missing with advantage is possible, then sure. If you think the illness is people expecting advantage means they'll never miss, then this cures that just fine.
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Kip Kwiatkowski
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
I think the strategy behind these rolling modifiers, and all perks, is in what order you add them to the deck.

There is a large discussion about this somewhere else (I'm too lazy to find it).

Anyways, the idea behind the rolling modifier is their inherent risk vs. reward. If you put it into a previously unmodified deck, you maintain the exact same probability of positive or negative effects from each card flip (since in effect a rolling modifier counts as flipping 0 cards).

What you need to focus on, if you are worried, is removing the negative cards first. This will reduce the risk part of the rolling modifier, as the weight of the negative cards will be reduced.
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Des T.
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
kgk4569 wrote:

What you need to focus on, if you are worried, is removing the negative cards first. This will reduce the risk part of the rolling modifier, as the weight of the negative cards will be reduced.


While I technically agree with you, some classes (such as IB), don't/barely have the option of weeding out negative cards. I assume most of them aren't as damage centric as those that can, but the issue (possibly) remains.
 
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Even if that is the case, because of the nature of rollover, you don't have a higher percentage of it causing a miss.

Saying that means that you are making the assumption that if the rollover card was not there, the card that you would have turned over instead would have been a non-negative card.
 
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Dexter345 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Honestly this feels like a cure worse than the illness.


Depends on what you think the illness is. If the illness is how rolling modifiers make it so missing with advantage is possible, then sure. If you think the illness is people expecting advantage means they'll never miss, then this cures that just fine.

Missing is a small part of it, the problem imo is that rolling modifiers are already usually weaker perks, made even worse by how they interact with advantage.
 
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Grey Fox
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
I hope you do realize that even like this, adding further rolling modifiers to the deck increases the odds of advantage being useless, so this is not a fix at all.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
It's a fix for what the OP wants to fix: the player's expectation that Advantage equals impossible to miss.

It is not a "fix" for the mathematical fact that rolling modifiers decrease the benefit of Advantage and the detriment of Disadvantage. That's built into the game, and it doesn't seem like the OP thinks it's a problem.
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Grey Fox
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Dexter345 wrote:
It's a fix for what the OP wants to fix: the player's expectation that Advantage equals impossible to miss.

It is not a "fix" for the mathematical fact that rolling modifiers decrease the benefit of Advantage and the detriment of Disadvantage. That's built into the game, and it doesn't seem like the OP thinks it's a problem.


It still raises the odds that you'll miss.

Also, I wouldn't say making half your perks useless is such a great "detriment" to disadvantage.
 
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James J
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
CodenameGreyFox wrote:
I hope you do realize that even like this, adding further rolling modifiers to the deck increases the odds of advantage being useless, so this is not a fix at all.


The "fix" is to stop people from expecting advantage to guarantee a hit from the very beginning, rather than it being introduced because of RMs.

I don't agree with the need for it, and think the other side of advantage should be fixed, but that is not OPs point and I just wanted to clarify.
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Darren Nakamura
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
If you put a rolling modifier in your deck, then you get a disadvantaged attack, then you pull that rolling modifier and a +1 or a +2 or heck, maybe even the 2x, you've benefited from the rolling modifier.

You're looking at it backward. It's not "Oh, I spent a perk to put this rolling modifier in my deck and disadvantage makes it so I might as well have not put it in." It's "I spent a perk to put this rolling modifier in my deck and its purpose during disadvantage is to force choosing the other modifier rolled. It served itself well."

So if you cull the negatives from your deck and you add rolling modifiers, your disadvantaged attacks are still going to be hitting +1s and +2s. Compare this to culling the negatives but not adding in rolling modifiers: you're still unlikely to hit a negative, but you have an increased chance of hitting the null.

People always dismiss the other side of this. Yes, Advantage + rolling modifiers is mathematically weaker than not. But it's also true that Disadvantage + rolling modifier is mathematically stronger than not. Rolling modifiers don't weaken your deck outright; they just decrease the intensity of the effect in both directions.
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Dexter345 wrote:
If you put a rolling modifier in your deck, then you get a disadvantaged attack, then you pull that rolling modifier and a +1 or a +2 or heck, maybe even the 2x, you've benefited from the rolling modifier.

You're looking at it backward. It's not "Oh, I spent a perk to put this rolling modifier in my deck and disadvantage makes it so I might as well have not put it in." It's "I spent a perk to put this rolling modifier in my deck and its purpose during disadvantage is to force choosing the other modifier rolled. It served itself well."

So if you cull the negatives from your deck and you add rolling modifiers, your disadvantaged attacks are still going to be hitting +1s and +2s. Compare this to culling the negatives but not adding in rolling modifiers: you're still unlikely to hit a negative, but you have an increased chance of hitting the null.

People always dismiss the other side of this. Yes, Advantage + rolling modifiers is mathematically weaker than not. But it's also true that Disadvantage + rolling modifier is mathematically stronger than not. Rolling modifiers don't weaken your deck outright; they just decrease the intensity of the effect in both directions.


Yah, hypothetically, but I don't remember that time I got a 2X for disadvantage, because it's still worse than not having disadvantage, and I didn't care much about the attack anyways, cause I knew it had disadvantage and planned for a weak attack, what I do remember is that time I drew a NULL for advantage and on my base 10 attack to kill an elite/boss/whatever, and I whiffed. And, this whole thing feels worse as a DPS person vs an AOE person as well.
 
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Darren Nakamura
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
100% agree. This is largely an issue of cognitive biases. People put more weight on the fact that you can miss while you have Advantage than the fact that you can crit while you have Disadvantage, even though the two scenarios are symmetrical to one another.

The whole point of this thread is to introduce the possibility from the very beginning for that to happen, so people don't see it as an unusual anomaly when they first experience it after adding a rolling modifier perk.
 
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Dexter345 wrote:
If you put a rolling modifier in your deck, then you get a disadvantaged attack, then you pull that rolling modifier and a +1 or a +2 or heck, maybe even the 2x, you've benefited from the rolling modifier.

You're looking at it backward. It's not "Oh, I spent a perk to put this rolling modifier in my deck and disadvantage makes it so I might as well have not put it in." It's "I spent a perk to put this rolling modifier in my deck and its purpose during disadvantage is to force choosing the other modifier rolled. It served itself well."

So if you cull the negatives from your deck and you add rolling modifiers, your disadvantaged attacks are still going to be hitting +1s and +2s. Compare this to culling the negatives but not adding in rolling modifiers: you're still unlikely to hit a negative, but you have an increased chance of hitting the null.

People always dismiss the other side of this. Yes, Advantage + rolling modifiers is mathematically weaker than not. But it's also true that Disadvantage + rolling modifier is mathematically stronger than not. Rolling modifiers don't weaken your deck outright; they just decrease the intensity of the effect in both directions.


The thing is:

With lots of rolling modifiers, advantage is 100% useless. There is no difference between having advantage or not.

With lots of rolling modifiers, disadvantage is NOT 100% useless. Not even close. While it might not work by making you get the lower card, it works by making you ignore all your modifiers, which you would normally draw and use.
 
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Ben Kyo
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Dexter345 wrote:
100% agree. This is largely an issue of cognitive biases. People put more weight on the fact that you can miss while you have Advantage than the fact that you can crit while you have Disadvantage, even though the two scenarios are symmetrical to one another.

You can't just call it cognitive bias though, because missing a crucial advantage attack is much more of a big deal than buffing a disadvantaged attack. Just because they are symmetrical that doesn't mean they are equally weighted.

Dexter345 wrote:
The whole point of this thread is to introduce the possibility from the very beginning for that to happen, so people don't see it as an unusual anomaly when they first experience it after adding a rolling modifier perk.

Yes.
 
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Benkyo wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
100% agree. This is largely an issue of cognitive biases. People put more weight on the fact that you can miss while you have Advantage than the fact that you can crit while you have Disadvantage, even though the two scenarios are symmetrical to one another.

You can't just call it cognitive bias though, because missing a crucial advantage attack is much more of a big deal than buffing a disadvantaged attack. Just because they are symmetrical that doesn't mean they are equally weighted.



So much this point!

Also, to bring it up again, AOE vs DPS are very uneven in both advantage and disadvantage cases.

if I play dirt tornado, and am hitting 4 people for 2 damage each (by eating an element or whatever), I've got a base of 4, and am muddling everyone. Assuming your at the point in your perk deck where you have rolling modifiers and most of your -1's and -2's are gone (and you pull modifier + NULL for one attack), you're still looking at 6 damage total. And you prob. don't care if you're in disadvantage or advantage, because sure a NULL sucks, but no big deal, 3 more targets.

But, if you're DPS, doing 8 damage + muddle, and you pull your modifier + NULL, you've done no damage.
 
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Re: Any suggestions on how best to add a +0 rolling modifier to every attack deck?
Benkyo wrote:
NB: I won't reply to any responses that tell me I shouldn't do this or that I'm wrong for wanting to make this happen, or that another variant is better. Helpful suggestions on how to make it happen, please!
I mean, if someone proclaims their intent to test a sledgehammer on the support beams of his own home, but says that he doesn't want anyone telling him that he'll damage the structure I'd like to think I'd still speak up in protest
 
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