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Subject: Stretch Goals and Minis Question rss

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Greg Gresik
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As more stretch goals have been achieved and revealed there is an odd trend developing that I don't understand - and perhaps the developers can weigh in here (and on the KS page) to clarify or explain the reasoning.

Specifically, the inclusion of different bandit minis as stretch goals. As far as I can tell, if all stretch goals known are reached there will be 6 different bandit minis in the game.

Bandits are all the same, in terms of function and often are not even on the board (there are several events, including player actions, that remove them). Why spend the money on separate sculpts for minis that all have the same functionality and aren't even on the board most of the game?

Why are these stretch goals (and time/funding) not being used for character specific minis, which ARE different in function and will be on the board the entire game?

As I said, it is possible I am missing something, but from both an economic efficiency standpoint and even a marketing standpoint, this doesn't seem to make much sense. Player character-specific minis are at least functional. Different bandit minis are, at best, just eye candy - and often, eye candy sitting off on the side of the board.

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Casey Clark
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Agree with this completely! Seems like a waste of money/time to me too.
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Aaron

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OHhhh... this gives me an idea now for creating my own specific names and back stories for these 'bandits' arrrh

Maybe I can even give each one some sort of special power-up of my own choosing?

Thanks for mentioning it!
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Redcap
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Sounds like common sense to me for sure. More characters, more glamour.

But I'd rather bandit moulds than bigger dice as a SG :-)
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Philip Mazzone
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I also brought this up myself. You can see my comment in the main comments section (same name). I said the same thing...its just really odd how the SGs have worked ..... double dice size upgrade, saying 6 player aids will now be included (should be 1 per player standard), and all this effort for Bandit minis that literally have no function and could have just been represented my nice tokens and would have been just as playable.

Im lost, so I just let it go.surprise
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Jon Greisz
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Perhaps a stretch goal will be rules on how to use different bandits in different ways.
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Mark Burke (The Chubby Meeple)
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As it stands now, the bandits do not have different functions. However, we have something planned for them coming up in the stretch goals. Stay tuned to our campaign page. We're confident we will unlock what is already shown on the page, as well as what we have planned.

Alternate actions for the bandits are a great idea for a future expansion (or even a future rule set). I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.
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Greg Gresik
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bloominoctober wrote:
As it stands now, the bandits do not have different functions. However, we have something planned for them coming up in the stretch goals.

I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.


I am really liking this game, but, I'm sorry - this doesn't make sense. If the functionality doesn't change, how can there be some sort of stretch goal that justifies having 6 different minis...if they all remain functionally the same?

Honestly, it feels like the more recent stretch goals are of the "we already decided to do this, so we're just calling it a stretch goal" variety. While I love the attention to detail and the overall concepts of the game, the recent direction of the stretch goals is, well, less than exciting.
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The Rake
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I'm pretty much in agreement with the OP. I'd much rather have unique miniatures for all of the player characters and a standard mini for all of the bandits especially if there are no unique differences for the bandits.
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Jason Stansel
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The only way it makes any sense to me is that at some point the bandits will function in unique ways. I agree that having unique sculpts is nice but seems unnecessary if there is no gameplay difference. I don’t mind that there is not a unique sculpt for every character (although I would like to see a second American Indian sculpt).
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Mr Suitcase
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Guys, lots of other companies make alternate sculpts for the same piece. As an example, please see ANY of CMON's games, where they do it for EVERYTHING.

Most notable examples are Blood Rage, and Zombicide: Black Plague. E.g. In Z:BP, the "walker" zombie type has 5 different sculpts. So, when you put them on the board together, a group of zombies looks a LOT better. It doesn't looks like someone took a "zombie photocopier" to the game.

So, I'm completely fine with this. Sure, I'd PREFER every character have a unique sculpt, but it looks like the arc of the stretch goals will end up giving us that ANYWAYS. So you get both.

in other words, I don't think there's anything to complain about.
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Greg Gresik
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mrsuitcase wrote:
Guys, lots of other companies make alternate sculpts for the same piece. As an example, please see ANY of CMON's games, where they do it for EVERYTHING.

Most notable examples are Blood Rage, and Zombicide: Black Plague. E.g. In Z:BP, the "walker" zombies have 4? I think different sculpts. So, when you put them on the board together, the group looks a LOT better.

So, I'm completely fine with this. Sure, I'd PREFER every character have a unique sculpt, but it looks like the arc of the stretch goals will end up giving us that ANYWAYS. So you get both.

in other words, I don't think there's anything to complain about.


Not complaining - just asking what the reasoning is.

And there is a reason I don't back CMON games on KS.
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Mr Suitcase
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Nikoms wrote:

Not complaining - just asking what the reasoning is.

And there is a reason I don't back CMON games on KS.


No worries - note that their retail versions of the same games also have the same differences in the sculpts as well.

(and I'm trying to cut down on their KS'ers myself...)
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Beau McDaniel
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bloominoctober wrote:
As it stands now, the bandits do not have different functions. However, we have something planned for them coming up in the stretch goals. Stay tuned to our campaign page. We're confident we will unlock what is already shown on the page, as well as what we have planned.

Alternate actions for the bandits are a great idea for a future expansion (or even a future rule set). I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.


For the most part I'm a big believer in trusting the designers of the game, they mostly know what they're doing. That said it always scares me on Kickstarters when parts of the game are stretch goals. So we will miss out on all the extra story cards if we don't hit a certain number? We won't get one player aid per person unless we raise "x" amount? These all seem like things that should just be in the game.

So my question is, if we don't hit all the stretch goals, how much of the core game will we be missing? Is all of this extra stuff that's just essentially fluff? That's what I tend to think but when I see things such as player aids as a stretch goal it makes me question that notion. That seems like one of the things that should be in there from the start.

Not trying to gripe, I'm just genuinely wondering if the core game has been pieced out as stretch goals or if it remains intact and these stretch goals are just flavor. Who knows, maybe the player aids aren't really that necessary so you didn't see much of a need for more than one as the game is rather intuitive.

Regardless, thanks for continuing to answer our questions
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Jesse Black
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The game looks great! I love the unique looking bandit minis. However, my preference is by far a unique mini for each character. I definitely think it's a thematic disconnect to play with an archetype in some instances and specific minis in other character instances.
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Kurt Van Hoeyveld
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Although I'm very excited about this game, finaly that western themed game with lots of westerny (is that even a word?) things to do, I must agree that the choice of different bandit sculpts instead of different minis for each playable character is a bit of a strange thing. I think everybody likes to play with their own figure on the board that really represents the character they're playing.

It's not a deal breaker for me at all, but I must admit I would have liked to see this otherwise.
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Josh Gribble
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Beau, I hear what you are saying, but I don't see that in this game at all. Honestly, the pre-stretch goal version of this game looks plenty complete and packs plenty of material into a $60 price tag. Some of the quality upgrades are really beneficial (maybe not the second dice upgrade, but who knows, maybe someone loves giant dice), but the last thing I'd ever think when seeing the initial version and demo videos was that this game was missing some of it's core. Anyway, YMMV, but for me I'm thrilled with what the game offers and excited about unlocking new possibilities int the campaign or future expansions.
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VetruvianGamer wrote:
Although I'm very excited about this game, finaly that western themed game with lots of westerny (is that even a word?) things to do, I must agree that the choice of different bandit sculpts instead of different minis for each playable character is a bit of a strange thing. I think everybody likes to play with their own figure on the board that really represents the character they're playing.

It's not a deal breaker for me at all, but I must admit I would have liked to see this otherwise.


+1
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Michael Müller
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Nikoms wrote:
bloominoctober wrote:
As it stands now, the bandits do not have different functions. However, we have something planned for them coming up in the stretch goals.

I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.


I am really liking this game, but, I'm sorry - this doesn't make sense. If the functionality doesn't change, how can there be some sort of stretch goal that justifies having 6 different minis...if they all remain functionally the same?

Honestly, it feels like the more recent stretch goals are of the "we already decided to do this, so we're just calling it a stretch goal" variety. While I love the attention to detail and the overall concepts of the game, the recent direction of the stretch goals is, well, less than exciting.

I also find it really cheesy. What if we do not achieve that stretchgoal that gives us the different function for different bandits? Then we have different bandits but no matching character miniatures.
I guess it is an expansion that was planned from the beginning. It would be better to be honest to the Kickstarter community and shed some light. At the moment we have about 50% of the characters having the matching figure and about 2/3 of the character count we have as figure count. This is really a bit rirdicilous.

I think there have been some bad decisions in the campaign:
- 22mm dice upgrade
- additional player aids as stretchgoal
- no matching figures in the "The Good, the Bad and the Hansdome" expansion to give it more value
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Greg Gresik
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sychobob wrote:
Nikoms wrote:
bloominoctober wrote:
As it stands now, the bandits do not have different functions. However, we have something planned for them coming up in the stretch goals.

I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.


I am really liking this game, but, I'm sorry - this doesn't make sense. If the functionality doesn't change, how can there be some sort of stretch goal that justifies having 6 different minis...if they all remain functionally the same?

Honestly, it feels like the more recent stretch goals are of the "we already decided to do this, so we're just calling it a stretch goal" variety. While I love the attention to detail and the overall concepts of the game, the recent direction of the stretch goals is, well, less than exciting.

I also find it really cheesy. What if we do not achieve that stretchgoal that gives us the different function for different bandits? Then we have different bandits but no matching character miniatures.
I guess it is an expansion that was planned from the beginning. It would be better to be honest to the Kickstarter community and shed some light.


Just to be clear - they have specifically stated that whatever the "secret bandit related stretch goal" is, it will NOT be different functions. All bandits are functionally the same - even though we now have 6 different bandit minis. Mark said so specifically:

Quote:
I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.

The last part, about shedding light, I agree with.

I understand that you want to "build momentum" at the end of a KS campaign - but causing people to be wary because of seemingly pointless stretch goals is not the way to accomplish that goal. For the many positives in this KS campaign, I agree that there have also been some missteps. Being open and honest about why we have 6 different bandit minis, while a majority of the actual playable characters remain "mini-less" would be a good step at this point. Especially since, while $10k a day is nothing to sneeze at, the campaign is clearly losing momentum.

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Travis R. Chance
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Nikoms wrote:
sychobob wrote:
Nikoms wrote:
bloominoctober wrote:
As it stands now, the bandits do not have different functions. However, we have something planned for them coming up in the stretch goals.

I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.


I am really liking this game, but, I'm sorry - this doesn't make sense. If the functionality doesn't change, how can there be some sort of stretch goal that justifies having 6 different minis...if they all remain functionally the same?

Honestly, it feels like the more recent stretch goals are of the "we already decided to do this, so we're just calling it a stretch goal" variety. While I love the attention to detail and the overall concepts of the game, the recent direction of the stretch goals is, well, less than exciting.

I also find it really cheesy. What if we do not achieve that stretchgoal that gives us the different function for different bandits? Then we have different bandits but no matching character miniatures.
I guess it is an expansion that was planned from the beginning. It would be better to be honest to the Kickstarter community and shed some light.


Just to be clear - they have specifically stated that whatever the "secret bandit related stretch goal" is, it will NOT be different functions. All bandits are functionally the same - even though we now have 6 different bandit minis. Mark said so specifically:

Quote:
I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.

The last part, about shedding light, I agree with.

I understand that you want to "build momentum" at the end of a KS campaign - but causing people to be wary because of seemingly pointless stretch goals is not the way to accomplish that goal. For the many positives in this KS campaign, I agree that there have also been some missteps. Being open and honest about why we have 6 different bandit minis, while a majority of the actual playable characters remain "mini-less" would be a good step at this point. Especially since, while $10k a day is nothing to sneeze at, the campaign is clearly losing momentum.



Losing momentum? Not at all. Maintaining $10k a day when many many games make hundreds of bucks through the "slowdown" is something we are more than happy with--esp as a first time company with a theme that many consider hard to market. Further, the last 2 days are massive for campaigns. The 48 hour reminders come in and the conservative estimate for the last 2 days is typically 1/3 of total funding. Kicktraq metrics can show, on any campaign that funds, this uptick, for those that would like to look further.

This is my 16th successful KS campaign. There is a method to the madness
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Greg Gresik
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Yes, I understand how KS works. I have backed several successful projects myself (most of the Tiny Epic series, as one example). In many successful KS, the last week into the 48 push the project actually picks up as more desired stretch goals are unlocked. Using Tiny Epic Kingdoms as an example (since the "Tiny Epic"s after that all had the benefit of an established line) - the final 7 days saw it's daily average go from 5k (during the "lull" period to $10k plus/day for the final 7 days (20k+ in the final 3 days):

TEK Kicktraq

Tiny Epic Galaxies followed a similar line, growing in the final 7 days both in terms of average daily intake and number of new backers:

TEG Kicktraq


Conversely, Western Legends numbers continue to slip in the final 7 days.

WL Kicktraq

Obviously, actual dollar amounts differ, as the price point of the games differs - but the relationship is still the same.

I also realize that in most KS, 1/3 is in the first few days and 1/3 in the final 2-3 days. And am by no means trying to question the overall success of the campaign - merely pointing out that there might be a reason to the lack of momentum in the final week. That reason could be the lack of desirable stretch goals at this point. Obviously, that's your call. I am merely suggesting that, at this point, it might be helpful to the momentum of the campaign to lay all your cards on the table, as opposed to trying to keep a final bullet or two in the chamber.

You won't need to create momentum in the finally 48 hours - that happens naturally with the 48 hour emails and FOMO. But with only 4 days left, some disclosure might be a nice jump start to build momentum into the 48 hour bump.

Again, I love this game and want to see it close the campaign strong, blowing past all the stretch goals. My guess in the other thread is $565k+ - and think I was being conservative.
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Michael Müller
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Kolossal wrote:
Nikoms wrote:
sychobob wrote:
Nikoms wrote:
bloominoctober wrote:
As it stands now, the bandits do not have different functions. However, we have something planned for them coming up in the stretch goals.

I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.


I am really liking this game, but, I'm sorry - this doesn't make sense. If the functionality doesn't change, how can there be some sort of stretch goal that justifies having 6 different minis...if they all remain functionally the same?

Honestly, it feels like the more recent stretch goals are of the "we already decided to do this, so we're just calling it a stretch goal" variety. While I love the attention to detail and the overall concepts of the game, the recent direction of the stretch goals is, well, less than exciting.

I also find it really cheesy. What if we do not achieve that stretchgoal that gives us the different function for different bandits? Then we have different bandits but no matching character miniatures.
I guess it is an expansion that was planned from the beginning. It would be better to be honest to the Kickstarter community and shed some light.


Just to be clear - they have specifically stated that whatever the "secret bandit related stretch goal" is, it will NOT be different functions. All bandits are functionally the same - even though we now have 6 different bandit minis. Mark said so specifically:

Quote:
I can confirm that in the base game (and for the purposes of this campaign), bandits will not have different actions/behaviors.

The last part, about shedding light, I agree with.

I understand that you want to "build momentum" at the end of a KS campaign - but causing people to be wary because of seemingly pointless stretch goals is not the way to accomplish that goal. For the many positives in this KS campaign, I agree that there have also been some missteps. Being open and honest about why we have 6 different bandit minis, while a majority of the actual playable characters remain "mini-less" would be a good step at this point. Especially since, while $10k a day is nothing to sneeze at, the campaign is clearly losing momentum.



Losing momentum? Not at all. Maintaining $10k a day when many many games make hundreds of bucks through the "slowdown" is something we are more than happy with--esp as a first time company with a theme that many consider hard to market. Further, the last 2 days are massive for campaigns. The 48 hour reminders come in and the conservative estimate for the last 2 days is typically 1/3 of total funding. Kicktraq metrics can show, on any campaign that funds, this uptick, for those that would like to look further.

This is my 16th successful KS campaign. There is a method to the madness

Lowering the Stretchgoals is definitely a sign that the actual momentum is lower than you expected as you announced the Stretchgoals. So please don't take us for a fool.

But it is more concerning that you talk about the momentum and still do not tell us about the different function of the bandit figures. I think the Kickstarter would benefit more from more openess and less mystery.
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Travis R. Chance
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I feel we have been extremely open. Taking the to time reply, engage, etc. We have commented on the bandits numerous times and openly. We would ask to please view these comments carefully.

Regarding stretch goals and momentum, please refer to kicktraq. This is my 16th successful KS. The last 48 hrs is conservatively 1/3 of total funding.

Let’s try and stay positive. We are happy to converse, as we have shown.
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Greg Gresik
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Kolossal wrote:
I feel we have been extremely open. Taking the to time reply, engage, etc.


Absolutely agree. I, as well as many of the other backers, truly appreciate the amount of engagement from you and the rest of the Kolossal team.

Kolossal wrote:
We have commented on the bandits numerous times...


Again, I agree.

Kolossal wrote:
...and openly.


Oops. See, here is where the reason for the original post comes in.

Whenever the question comes up about why there are 6 different bandit sculpts, while many of the player characters don't have their own minis, most of the the answers have been vague and guarded. Just above in this thread:
bloominoctober wrote:
As it stands now, the bandits do not have different functions. However, we have something planned for them coming up in the stretch goals. Stay tuned to our campaign page. We're confident we will unlock what is already shown on the page, as well as what we have planned.


I wouldn't exactly call that clear and "open". And now with three days left, there is still no stretch goal related to the bandits - other than the additional minis.

And just to reiterate, I fully support what you are trying to do and hope for tremendous success in this KS campaign. I hope there are numerous expansions in the future - and I will undoubtedly back/buy all of them. I am merely suggesting that answering the simple question "Why do we need 6 different bandit sculpts?" might help generate more positivity at this point than continuing to keep it a secret. Especially with only 3 days left to the campaign.


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