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Sherman Leader» Forums » General

Subject: My first impressions rss

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Andre Oliveira
Brazil
Sao Paulo
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This is not a review. I don't have time to write one right now (maybe later). But I'd like to vent a little frustration with my first experience with Sherman Leader vis-à-vis my expectations.

I almost jumped on the Tiger Leader title when it was announced. Later, I was glad I didn't do it, given the amount of criticism it received by the community.

Then, after hearing that Sherman was a much better design, I bought it along with the terrain expansion. This weekend I put it on the table and tried the North African introductory campaign.

Verdict: I thought it was a pretty mediocre experience. Very much in line with people's experiences with Tiger Leader.

Mind you, I am a big fan of Thunderbolt/Apache Leader, which is one of the best solo designs I've ever tried.

However, there is, IMO, one important difference between the experience with TAL and the experience with SL:

At TAL, you really feel that you are planning and executing an operation with individual A-10 Thunderbolts and individual helicopters, assigning weapons, dealing with technical damage, maneuvering them in a limiting terrain according to the aircraft capabilities, changing altitude, strafing, firing available missiles, etc. In other words, you feel you are really managing a few individual aircraft, with their limitations, and the ammo and other resources you brought with them to the battlefield.

At SL, I never felt I was managing a tank. Never. You do not arm your tanks, you do not manage ammo, either for your main gun or for your MG, you don't manage fuel, you don't manage different team members inside the tank, you don't deal with maneuvering limitations, and your interaction with terrain is pretty basic. It felt like I was playing a watered down version of Memoir 44, advancing with a couple of rifle teams, a couple of tanks and an arty piece, with more simplistic rules and a crappy art.

Without the more "technical" aspects of managing individual assets that you have in TAL, Phantom Leader, IDF Leader, and other of the older titles, Sherman Leader seemed like a mediocre tactical exercise, where the tank is just another piece on the map, alongside a few others.

Okay, maybe it was the fact that N.Africa is just a learning campaign and not really exiting, and the others are much more interesting, but the main problem for me is that this is NOT a "Tank Leader" game, which was what I was expecting. More difficult campaigns, in different terrain, won't change that.

A pitty...
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Bob Piepho
United States
Missouri
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It's a bit more fun with the optional terrain, but most of your points are well taken. It really doesn't have the feel of managing any specific unit, but rather a grouping that is designed to take on the enemy units. There is more mental exercise in picking your forces and then building the individual teams needed to handle the enemy battalions that one decides to encounter that week. I tried both North Africa and Bulge, and they were very tough to beat, with "adequate" the best I could muster. But after a few plays, it's pretty much a die-rolling experience, although there is a bit more strategy with the optional, and more complex, terrain.
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Ben Bosmans
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I will not start the discussion again about the Leader series and its non simulation value. Rest assured Leader fans.

But if you want a simple dice roller for fun with a military theme attached as a “fun” 30 minutes game, I can understand some people want that and clearly can find that in SL...

It is like having fun in Dungeonquest. Not every dungeon crawler needs the lengthy play or App assist AI of Descent2 either.

But with names like “Warfighter” or “Tiger and Sherman Leader” you would think these games are heavy military simulations and they really are not.

The Air Leader series can still pretend being light simulations through dice odds, but Land combat as represented here is indeed much nearer to Memoir44 than say other light-medium wargames.

Fun is the keyword, but with a very thin military layer.

Apart from the fun dice rolling accompanied with “bang” and kaboom sounds, it is also solo playable, which memoir as such does not offer.
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Tim Reece
United States
Post Falls
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Ben, it is well documented on this site that you don't care for DVG games, especially the Leader series. This is at least the third thread that I have read your opinion regurgitated in. I respect the fact that you don't the games. That's your right. What I don't understand is why you spend so much time on forums for games you don't like. Just seems like you are taking it a bit too far.
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Ben Bosmans
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jtrbucks wrote:
Ben, it is well documented on this site that you don't care for DVG games, especially the Leader series. This is at least the third thread that I have read your opinion regurgitated in. I respect the fact that you don't the games. That's your right. What I don't understand is why you spend so much time on forums for games you don't like. Just seems like you are taking it a bit too far.


Because I bought the game 3 days ago and it is good enough for fun dice rolling.

Actually your reaction shows how people react to a post ... without reading its exact content and just browse through the first few words ...

People tend to read too much into posts of others really. I have rated Memoir44 a 5 btw and still have all expansions as the game grew with each expansion. I think I rated SL a 6 now, but I decided to get it for these trivial times of play.

Being critical is one thing, but it doesn’t prevent me of buying things.
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Marcus Lind
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I liked Bens points in light of the original post.

What you expect from a game will surely influence how you rate/like it. Me, I have not played my copy of SL yet. But I have read the manual, and do not expect (nor do I want to) to dive into different kinds of ammo and focus on technical and historical detail. I want to try a different kind of solitaire war game, since I mainly play Conflict of heroes (which is renowned for it's advanced [to some, complicated] AI).
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Tim Reece
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Ben_Bos wrote:
jtrbucks wrote:
Ben, it is well documented on this site that you don't care for DVG games, especially the Leader series. This is at least the third thread that I have read your opinion regurgitated in. I respect the fact that you don't the games. That's your right. What I don't understand is why you spend so much time on forums for games you don't like. Just seems like you are taking it a bit too far.


Because I bought the game 3 days ago and it is good enough for fun dice rolling.

Actually your reaction shows how people react to a post ... without reading its exact content and just browse through the first few words ...

People tend to read too much into posts of others really. I have rated Memoir44 a 5 btw and still have all expansions as the game grew with each expansion. I think I rated SL a 6 now, but I decided to get it for these trivial times of play.

Being critical is one thing, but it doesn’t prevent me of buying things.


I read your whole post. Just like I did in the other 2 threads. Like I said I respect the fact you aren’t a huge fan of the Leader series. I like TAL and SL, but didn’t like Gato at all and I have passed on IAL and B-17, so I’m not just some fan boy. It seemed to me like you had gotten to the point where you were going out of your way to be negative to SL and ther Series in general and had passed the point of being helpful.
 
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Mike Adams
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André,
If you’re looking for a tank game where you get to manage everything from your crew to the type of ammo you are loaded with I suggest Patton’s Best.
It’s an older Avalon Hill game. I’m sure you could prob find one here on BGG.
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Andre Oliveira
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MJA1967 wrote:
André,
If you’re looking for a tank game where you get to manage everything from your crew to the type of ammo you are loaded with I suggest Patton’s Best.
It’s an older Avalon Hill game. I’m sure you could prob find one here on BGG.


That's a great suggestion. Thanks!
 
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ola bergh
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Jordbro / Stockholm
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MJA1967 wrote:
André,
If you’re looking for a tank game where you get to manage everything from your crew to the type of ammo you are loaded with I suggest Patton’s Best.
It’s an older Avalon Hill game. I’m sure you could prob find one here on BGG.


I have been looking into this game for a few days, and i own PB. Both games seems to lack things from another. PB don't have the tarskforce or campaign management, and TL/SL seems to lack the combat charts.

Would it be easy to incorporate PB's combat charts for TL/SL?

I don't wanna play an too basic game here. I find PB fun but on the borderline of beeing too basic aswell.

 
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Mike Adams
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dawnpatrols wrote:
MJA1967 wrote:
André,
If you’re looking for a tank game where you get to manage everything from your crew to the type of ammo you are loaded with I suggest Patton’s Best.
It’s an older Avalon Hill game. I’m sure you could prob find one here on BGG.


I have been looking into this game for a few days, and i own PB. Both games seems to lack things from another. PB don't have the tarskforce or campaign management, and TL/SL seems to lack the combat charts.

Would it be easy to incorporate PB's combat charts for TL/SL?

I don't wanna play an too basic game here. I find PB fun but on the borderline of beeing too basic aswell.



Hmmmm.......a combination of the two.
Now thats a very interesting idea.........
 
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