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Techno Bowl: Arcade Football Unplugged» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Snapping to QB on running plays rss

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Roger Bartels
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Outside of misdirection, is their any reason to snap to the QB if your intention is to run the ball? I seem to be stuck in a simulation football mindset and am trying to shift toward a mindset better suited to this game.
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Badly Jester
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Well, since players don't actually have set positions, what's stopping you from just lining up the guy you want to run with behind the center?

Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding you?
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Stephen Rochelle
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Yes, this. You can do running plays "traditionally", with a snap to Player A and a handoff to Player B (useful if you want to threaten a pass from A to Player C as well) or "wildcat" with the snap directly to B.

You can also engineer formations such that you appear to be in one set and then motion a player to/from the column behind center to switch to another.

Oh, one more (for "why if not misdirection"): adjustment. You can't designate a player for adjustment who has the ball. You can, however, get the ball with a designated player during an adjustment. So, snap to A, play high-initiative card C, adjust C and B, B takes the handoff from A and begins the run with C advancing to some useful screening position or something, B still has both cards available.
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troy jones
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If your running back does not have the ball, but is lined up right next to the QB, you can plan to use your Adjustment (perhaps even on the first activation) to have the RB take a hand-off and do a partial move. The idea is that it is a little bit of extra movement beyond what you'd get from just the RB's two cards in the play call. So, have the RB's cards as, say, second and third in the play call, but on the first activation of the play, use the Adjustment to give the RB a little bit of a head start.
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Brent Spivey
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lomn wrote:
Yes, this. You can do running plays "traditionally", with a snap to Player A and a handoff to Player B (useful if you want to threaten a pass from A to Player C as well) or "wildcat" with the snap directly to B.

You can also engineer formations such that you appear to be in one set and then motion a player to/from the column behind center to switch to another.

This is good stuff, and I'll add that misdirection is important. Every play you run is conditioning your opponent to expect certain things when they see a formation. Motions, reverses, play actions, and other plays are much more effective when you show a new look or do something completely unexpected from an 'known' formation.

Quote:
You can't designate a player for adjustment who has the ball. You can, however, get the ball with a designated player during an adjustment. So, snap to A, play high-initiative card C, adjust C and B, B takes the handoff from A and begins the run with C advancing to some useful screening position or something, B still has both cards available.

trojo wrote:
If your running back does not have the ball, but is lined up right next to the QB, you can plan to use your Adjustment (perhaps even on the first activation) to have the RB take a hand-off and do a partial move. The idea is that it is a little bit of extra movement beyond what you'd get from just the RB's two cards in the play call. So, have the RB's cards as, say, second and third in the play call, but on the first activation of the play, use the Adjustment to give the RB a little bit of a head start.

This a million times over! I really like to start my running plays, especially sweeps, with an adjustment to give my 7 skill running back a free 4 spaces followed by having his card up twice. If you set-up for a run like this, you can make a read and decide to send the adjustment player and the running back out for a pass [possibly after making your opponent go first]. It puts the pressure on the defense.

Also, if you snap the ball to a lone player in the backfield, the defense knows exactly where the threat is. As long as they maintain coverage, they can successfully read-and-react to you all day long unless you have the perfect play called.

All that said, I will snap the ball directly to Vic Mexico!
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Barry Miller
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lomn wrote:
... or "wildcat" with the snap directly to B.

Yeah, but player "B" still has to be lined up directly behind the center (er... "the player snapping the ball"). So this in effect means that Player "B" now becomes the quarterback. Just want to make sure I'm not missing something here.


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Trevor Schadt
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bgm1961 wrote:
So this in effect means that Player "B" now becomes the quarterback. Just want to make sure I'm not missing something here.
If you want the complete definition of "quarterback" to be "the person who receives the snap," then yes, by that definition, Player "B" has now "become the quarterback." But as Brent said, there are no set "positions" in TB. As a longtime fan of American football -- as I assume most of us here are -- I get that it's hard to get out of that mindset of assigning positions to players and building assumptions around those players from that. But that's not the game we're playing here, and if you can get yourself out of that mindset before your opponent, I think you'll find yourself with quite an advantage.
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Barry Miller
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ryudoowaru wrote:
But as Brent said, there are no set "positions" in TB.

Yeah, I get that... that's the way I taught the game since day one. So given exactly what you said, I guess the OP's question is losing me, as the rules mandate that the ball must be snapped to the first person directly behind the [center]. Call that player what you want. But if you don't "label" him the QB, then in effect, no one is the QB. Thus I found the question, "...is their [sic] any reason to snap to the QB if your intention is to..." to be confusing.

And then Stephen confused me even more when he wrote, "'wildcat' with the snap directly to B". The way he setup that portion of the sentence makes it sound like that player "B" is not the player behind the [center], so how could the ball be snapped to him?

That's when my head exploded at 0100 in the morning, and so I stopped reading the rest of the thread to write my post above and went to bed! Finally, I may know the rules really well, but I can also be dense and not get some of the finer nuances!

For instance, I'm still wrapping my head around the best way to use the "Adjustment" rule!


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Stephen Rochelle
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I was going with Trevor's perspective: it's easy to default to "Player X is the QB", particularly when you see that Andy Fortune is a Pocket Passer, even if you're not using skills. And there's no need to put that particular player in the traditional QB position.

So, you can use any player to take the snap, provided they're directly behind the center and within snapping range. If "QB" is defined as "player who receives the snap", then yes, the QB always gets the ball. But that's why I brought in the wildcat, because that's a direct snap to a player who's lined up where the QB usually is but (in "real-world" football) is generally recognized as not being the QB and probably not acting like the QB generally would -- even though (as with Techno Bowl) there's no actual rule that says the wildcat player can't behave like a traditional QB. It's just that it's a play design where that player probably won't behave that way.

The other motion thing I was hinting at is that you could set up a traditional "QB" formation and use motion to remove the QB (if you have your planned RB behind in I formation), to insert a direct-snap RB (if QB in shotgun and planned RB at, say, TE), or even both.
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Roger Bartels
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bgm1961 wrote:

ryudoowaru wrote:
But as Brent said, there are no set "positions" in TB.

Yeah, I get that... that's the way I taught the game since day one. So given exactly what you said, I guess the OP's question is losing me, as the rules mandate that the ball must be snapped to the first person directly behind the [center]. Call that player what you want. But if you don't "label" him the QB, then in effect, no one is the QB. Thus I found the question, "...is their [sic] any reason to snap to the QB if your intention is to..." to be confusing.

And then Stephen confused me even more when he wrote, "'wildcat' with the snap directly to B". The way he setup that portion of the sentence makes it sound like that player "B" is not the player behind the [center], so how could the ball be snapped to him?

That's when my head exploded at 0100 in the morning, and so I stopped reading the rest of the thread to write my post above and went to bed! Finally, I may know the rules really well, but I can also be dense and not get some of the finer nuances!

For instance, I'm still wrapping my head around the best way to use the "Adjustment" rule!




Let me clarify a bit. I get that there are no set positions in the game. However, your 6 guy that has pocket passer and QB read is obviously your quarterback. I was curious as to why you would ever snap to your QB, and not directly to the guy you want to run the ball, if you intended to just run the ball. I understand real football quite well and how misdirection is used. However, I don't understand the current game very much, and I am trying to grasp some of the subtleties, especially how to misdirect and obfuscate intentions. This thread has been quite helpful. Thank you all!
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Brent Spivey
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There's a simple example of using an adjustment at minute 39 of this video. It wouldn't have been possible if the ball had been snapped directly to the intended ball carrier.
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Steve Malczak
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A few other extra reasons to snap to a 'QB' rather than directly to the player who is expecting to run the ball:

1) You can line the RB up on either side of the QB and that gives you 1 extra square in that direction. Once the defense sets up, you can set up to run to the opposite side and then motion to the other side if it's more desirable.

2) The 'QB' is still going to be standing there after the 'RB' takes the ball and runs. That 'QB' still exerts ZoC and thus can indirectly slow down backside pursuit.

3) You don't have another vulnerable high numbered player on the line. If you line up to snap directly to your runner, your other 6 or 7 (or whatever) has to line up somewhere. If you put him out as a WR or a TE or whatnot, he's much more vulnerable to being unfavorably blocked and potentially generating a Total Success for the defense. Keeping him safely in the backfield can help remove a potential liability.

But yeah, the primary two reasons are misdirection (makes it harder for the defense to know if you're running or passing) and the ability to take the hand-off as an adjustment, giving you half a move more than you could as the direct snapper (and +1 additional space if you line up to the side you are running to).
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Everett
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One thing I've started doing is unless I have Pocket Passer or QB Read or something, I'll snap it to my 3, and have the player I want as a QB to be the tailback. This way it's hard to get sacked, and the 3 can just handoff the ball to the 6. Besides, the 3 is a dangerous pass blocker, and if he starts two spaces back can also plunge into the line, and when you line him up as a QB you get a ton of freedom with motions.

This is especially what I like to do on the Engines. If Biggins starts two spaces back, he can always threaten a plunge into the line, meaning that the defense has to play careful, but he can't get sacked and BFD3 can just take the handoff, roll out, and complete a long bomb downfield off of a #33 activation full success. QBs can be really devastating lead blockers as well. Imagine this. #55 is lined up in the slot. Biggins rushes into the the line, handing the ball off to #55, clearing a huge hole for him. But even on teams without skills on their 3, nobody ever really expects a QB block. The Rattlers are another good team to do this with.
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Karl Hiesterman
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lomn wrote:
So, snap to A, play high-initiative card C, adjust C and B, B takes the handoff from A and begins the run with C advancing to some useful screening position or something, B still has both cards available.


This raises a minor timing question that I think is unique to Adjustments. I think an Adjustment is the only time you could be moving two players for any one action; Are these movements simultaneous, or one after the other? Using the above example could I play C's card, proclaim my adjustment, hand off to an adjacent C, run C over to B, hand off to a now adjacent B, and then make B's adjust move?

Related: Can you make more than one hand-off in a single activation?
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Tony
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karlhiesterman wrote:
lomn wrote:
So, snap to A, play high-initiative card C, adjust C and B, B takes the handoff from A and begins the run with C advancing to some useful screening position or something, B still has both cards available.


This raises a minor timing question that I think is unique to Adjustments. I think an Adjustment is the only time you could be moving two players for any one action; Are these movements simultaneous, or one after the other? Using the above example could I play C's card, proclaim my adjustment, hand off to an adjacent C, run C over to B, hand off to a now adjacent B, and then make B's adjust move?

Related: Can you make more than one hand-off in a single activation?


Yes, you need to fully resolve one players movement before beginning the next, and you can hand off all you want.

Also the above play is a good way to start a running play.
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troy jones
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karlhiesterman wrote:
lomn wrote:
So, snap to A, play high-initiative card C, adjust C and B, B takes the handoff from A and begins the run with C advancing to some useful screening position or something, B still has both cards available.


This raises a minor timing question that I think is unique to Adjustments. I think an Adjustment is the only time you could be moving two players for any one action; Are these movements simultaneous, or one after the other? Using the above example could I play C's card, proclaim my adjustment, hand off to an adjacent C, run C over to B, hand off to a now adjacent B, and then make B's adjust move?

Related: Can you make more than one hand-off in a single activation?

You can do more than one hand-off in one activation. Page 15 of the rules says, "A player may attempt and perform as many hand-off attempts as desired during an activation-- assuming he doesn’t fail a sport check of course!"

I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to hand-off the ball twice on an adjustment. So long as neither of the "adjusted" players start the turn with the ball, it should be fine. Since they are both making half moves though, it seems to me to be of very limited tactical value to try to bucket-brigade the ball that way. One guy making a full move will normally be able to cover the same ground as two guys moving for half, and wouldn't use up your one adjustment.
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Tony
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trojo wrote:

I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to hand-off the ball twice on an adjustment. So long as neither of the "adjusted" players start the turn with the ball, it should be fine. Since they are both making half moves though, it seems to me to be of very limited tactical value to try to bucket-brigade the ball that way. One guy making a full move will normally be able to cover the same ground as two guys moving for half, and wouldn't use up your one adjustment.


Let’s say you have a 6 or 7 out wide, but within 3 movement spaces of a 5 who is next to your QB. You use the 5 card and adjust. The 5 takes the hand off and runs over to the 6 or 7. The 6 or 7 then can partially run up the field and have both their cards in que to keep running. It’s a little extra distance than just the QB running over and handing the ball off.

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