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Subject: Counter density? rss

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Øivind Karlsrud
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How is the counter density in this game? The counter density at the start of Cobra is terrible. Is this what I can expect from the game, or does it open up more in the full game? The biggest problem is that the stacks are big. Two counters I can deal with. Three counters or more in every hex is a pain.
 
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Marquo Straffnoye
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"Three counters or more in every hex is a pain."

Then this game is not for you...unfortunate because it is a great game.
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Øivind Karlsrud
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marquo wrote:
"Three counters or more in every hex is a pain."

Then this game is not for you...unfortunate because it is a great game.

I have ended up buying too many WWII games, anyway. I think I'll go back to the operational level games by Mark Simonitch, like Holland '44. Bigger counters, lower counter density.
 
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Michael McCalpin
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Cobra is certainly the worst of it, but yeah, the whole game is a bit of a tweezer-fest. Beautiful map, though. If I had the space to blow it up by 20% or so, I'll bet it would work very nicely.
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Øivind Karlsrud
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I have decided not to give up on this game, although the large stacks of small counters is annoying. But it has made me lose interest in Victory Roads. I have the impression that Liberty Roads is the better game, anyway.
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Joe Kong
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I like that there is no ZOC in Liberty Roads and tactical results in CRT. laugh


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Marc Hanna
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I think it is a great game too but it is unfortunate to have to learn the game playing Cobra with a bunch of massive stacks. Definitely a put-off trying to get that jump-started, especially since the support counters add even more to the stacks. On top of that it's not even a small map to make up for the counter density, so it's the worse of both worlds. That means the game has to be very very good to make it worth the annoyances.
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Bill Lawson
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oivind22 wrote:
I have decided not to give up on this game, although the large stacks of small counters is annoying. But it has made me lose interest in Victory Roads. I have the impression that Liberty Roads is the better game, anyway.


Love LR but my friends and I think VR is fantastic.
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Cameron
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billyboy wrote:

Love LR but my friends and I think VR is fantastic.


Compared to Liberty Roads, how much worse is the counter density in Victory Roads.
 
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Jakub Kircun
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CactusJuice wrote:
Compared to Liberty Roads, how much worse is the counter density in Victory Roads.

The counter density per hex is the same. VR is probably a three-fold increase in scope and total number of counters. It's a monster game by all accounts.

Here is a picture of both games side-by-side:
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Øivind Karlsrud
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joekong_hk wrote:

I like that there is no ZOC in Liberty Roads and tactical results in CRT. laugh

I like the tactical results, but I also prefer ZoCs, in general. It's a good way to decrease counter density. If it was up to me (e.g. if I was designing a game at this scale), I would probably choose to have corps-sized units, stacking limit of 2 and "sticky" ZoCs which can't be infiltrated.

But more than anything I like ZoI.
 
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Øivind Karlsrud
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kubaman wrote:
Here is a picture of both games side-by-side:

That doesn't look too bad, actually. Liberty Roads looks pretty managable, but I can see from this image that Victory Roads has more counters than I like.
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Cameron
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kubaman wrote:
[q="CactusJuice"]The counter density per hex is the same. VR is probably a three-fold increase in scope and total number of counters. It's a monster game by all accounts.

Here is a picture of both games side-by-side.


Jakub, thanks very helpful!
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Joe Kong
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oivind22 wrote:
But more than anything I like ZoI.


You mean Empire of the Sun?

I would like to quote again from a designer: "whenever there are ZOC, the scale between the map and units must be wrong." Adding complexities to ZOC rules (e.g. ZOC bond) may reduce the problem. However I do not like so much rule overhead to solve the issue. Only armour units have ZOC (e.g. Third Reich) is acceptable. Still I prefer its complete removal. blush



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Øivind Karlsrud
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joekong_hk wrote:

oivind22 wrote:
But more than anything I like ZoI.


You mean Empire of the Sun?

Yes.
Quote:
I would like to quote again from a designer: "whenever there are ZOC, the scale between the map and units must be wrong." Adding complexities to ZOC rules (e.g. ZOC bond) may reduce the problem. However I do not like so much rule overhead to solve the issue. Only armour units have ZOC (e.g. Third Reich) is acceptable. Still I prefer its complete removal. blush

I disagree with that designer, at least in this case. It's artificial anyway that we know exactly where each and every unit is located, so it might as well be spread over an area which is bigger than one hex. I play games as they are designed, but if it was up to me, I would only consider dropping ZOC rules in a game with no stacking.
 
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